Thinking about this is also tiring at time Greg but I cant walk away from it. I think this is the crux of the matter it will save you much scrolling 'cheers'
Mark's puts forward his case for non-retrogression of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas based on Gosho and Lotus Sutra and is in agreement with Katie and Stavros that Buddhas do not retrogress.
"...one who helps eradicate slander of the Law will ascend to the state from which there can be no retrogression. Thus the passage tells us that the monk Realization of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Kāshyapa, and that King Possessor of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Shakyamuni."
and
The sutra states, “Those persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in various Buddha lands, constantly reborn in company with their teachers,”6 and “If one stays close to the teachers of the Law, one will speedily gain the bodhisattva way. By following and learning from these p.748teachers one will see Buddhas as numerous as Ganges sands.”7 A commentary says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”8 Another commentary says, “In the beginning one followed this Buddha or bodhisattva and formed a bond with him, and so it will be through this Buddha or bodhisattva that one will attain one’s goal.”9 Above all, be sure to follow your original teacher so that you are able to attain Buddhahood. Shakyamuni Buddha is the original teacher for all people, and moreover, he is endowed with the virtues of sovereign and parent. Because I have expounded this teaching, I have been exiled and almost killed. As the saying goes, “Good advice grates on the ear.” But still I am not discouraged. The Lotus Sutra is like the seed, the Buddha like the sower, and the people like the field. If you deviate from these principles, not even I can save you in your next life.'
and
The “Life Span” chapter says, “I am the father of this world because I cure my deranged sons.”7 The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.... Just as all the hundred rivers flow into the sea, so is one drawn by one’s connection with the Buddha and born in company with the Buddha.”
and
"Answer: When the Buddha was in the world and was seated beneath the bodhi tree, he gauged the capacities of the people of his time. He perceived that if he preached the Lotus Sutra immediately, then people would slander it and would fall into the evil paths. If he waited for forty and more years before preaching it, however, they would not slander it, but instead would advance to the first of the ten stages of security, where there is no more retrogression, and would continue to advance until they had reached the stage of perfect enlightenment. But he also realized that, in the muddy age of the Latter Day of the Law, the capacities of the people would be such that not one person in ten thousand would be capable of reaching the first of the ten stages of security. Likewise he knew that those who would preach the teachings in that time, not being Buddhas, would have great difficulty correctly gauging the capacities of the people. Therefore the Buddha gave permission for such persons to preach the Lotus Sutra from the very beginning so that people could establish some connection with the sutra, whether it was one of rejection or of acceptance."
“Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.” “I am the only person”—
Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”
Mark;" I believe that since even Bodhisattvas can reach the stage of non-retrogression, Buddhas do not retrogress.
The question remains: Are we Buddhas? if so we will never retrogress. Should one abandon the Lotus Sutra, one is neither a Bodhisattva nor Buddha and rapidly retrogresses."
Noel; I believe that when one reaches the stage where there is no retrogression means that when we are at the stage of being at one with the Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One Musa Sanjin Buddha there will be no retrogression.
Since we and all Bodhisattvas an Buddhas (historical Shakyamuni Buddha) throughout the multiverse are only temporary at one with the Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One at different durations throughout eternity either in a fully cultivated form or momentarily as in this life
But when one abandons, doubts the correct understanding of the Lotus Sutra or slights the true Votary of the Lotus Sutra we will rapidly retrogress.
Only while believing the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren's teachings can one remain at one with the Trikāya, triple body of enlightenment , Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One, Musa Sanjin Buddha, where there is no retrogression.
"Only while believing the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren's teachings can one remain at one with the Trikāya, triple body of enlightenment , Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One, Musa Sanjin Buddha, where there is no retrogression."
No, Noel, I am not going to search *Eagle peach* or *Eagle Peak* for your terms. But I, I will repeat my request that you provide support for your specific claim, that I am :
" an infant who thinks they are Nichirens official spokeswoman yet has failed to grasp the basics of Nichiren Buddhism."
The support for your claim must come from your own search of Nichiren's writings. Nowhere else do we find the basics for the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin. - I had assumed you had grasped that much.
Please do not share your personal revelations of the mind in response, as, again, your asserting that your revelations are *teachings* is exactly what I have called you out on.
"They believe that since all vehicles are opened up and incorporated in the one vehicle of Buddhahood,no teaching is superior or inferior, shallow or profound, but all are equal to the Lotus Sutra. Hence the belief that chanting the Nembutsu, embracing the True Word teaching, *praticing Zen meditation*[revelations of the mind], or *professing and reciting any sutra* or the name of any Buddha [*, Musa Sanjin Buddha*], or bodhisattva equals following the Lotus Sutra. "On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings"-( content inside [ ] is mine)
Nichiren continues (WND 1,p.393)
"BUT I INSIST THAT THIS IS WRONG. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN PRACTICING THE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS IS TO FOLLOW AND UPHOLD THE BUDDHA'S GOLDEN WORDS, NOT THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS."
" Hence the sutra states: 'If there are good men or good women who...believe and revere it with pure hearts and harbor no doubts or perplexities, they will never fall into hell, or the realm of angry spirits or of beasts, but will be born in the presence of the Buddha's of the ten directions.' One should have complete faith in the Lotus Sutra and look forward to being born in the presence of the Buddha's in one's next life." ("Embracing the Lotus Sutra")
"...Shakyamuni Buddha, within our minds, is an ancient Buddha without beginning, manifesting Himself in three bodies and attained Buddhahood n the eternal past......(ibid. P.94)
"...the Bodhisattvas (who sprang from underneath the ground), as described in the 15th chapter, are followers of the Original Buddha Shakaymuni who resides within our minds."(p.94)
"Shakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will he be born in the future. He exists forever, throughout the past, present and future."
The 3 body tathagatta is beyond gender and has never died in the past, nor will be born in the future and exists forever, throughout the past, present and future
The individual Shakyamuni has died in the past and will be born in the future and exists forever, throughout the past, present and future as an ever changing individual
I feel the term "eternal Shakyamuni Buddha" is easily misunderstood as an individual who's reward body has always been at one with Thus Come One 3 body tathagatta.
The term 'Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha' refers to the historical buddha Shakyamuni who became one with the 3 body tathagatta at a point in time during the eternal past and will remain in this state until a point in time in the eternal future is more to the point ...lets be clear about this as the term Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha can create so much confusion if not understood in simple terms as what has been given just now!
Showing results for “ without beginning or end body dharma reward manifest ”
1601 Results Found http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/
I have always agreed that all 3 bodies (3 truths) are without beginning and end. The common mortal has 3 bodies ( 3 truths) like the 3 bodied Tathagatta but the differences lies in the reward body and manifest body
The state of the reward and manifest body of the common mortal is in a constant state of flux.
The Dharma body of the common mortal is at same state of perfect harmonious equilibrium as 3 bodied Tathagata Thus come one
Thus Come One the 3 bodied Tathagata body's are already in an eternal state of perfect harmonious equilibrium
Common mortals such as Shakyamuni and Nichiren experienced oneness with Thus Come One through cultivation in their past lives
Common mortals possess the mutual possession of the 10 worlds can experience oneness with Thus Come One 3 bodied Tathagata through cultivation; faith, study and practice on a temporary to a more permanent basis depending on our practice. Nichiren makes this accessible by inscription of the 10 world Gohonzon that is the simultaneity of cause and effect which means the result of what we desire to achieve 'Enlightenment" is already inherent in the process of the correct faith, study and practice
Once we are on this path of realisation and understanding we are no longer ordinary common mortals as such but become extraordinary common mortals that are becoming more Buddha like.
Special thanks to all the Buddas, Bodhisattvas, Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, Nichiren Daishonin and their votaries for making possible for those of us who have in the past, are at the moment and will suffer in the future in this Dark Age of Mappo for the hope that has been given unto us
correction - Showing results for “ without beginning or end body dharma reward manifest ” 3900 Results Found
"The adherents of the Precepts school do violence to the precepts that exceeds even the devastation of a crumbling mountain or a flooding river. Far from attaining Buddhahood, they will not even be reborn in the world of human or heavenly beings.
The Great Teacher Miao-lo states, “If one observes but a single precept, one will be born as a human being. But if one breaks even a single precept, one will instead fall into the three evil paths.”34 Who among Ninsho’s followers in the Precepts school embraces even one of the prohibitions set forth in the Observance of the Precepts Sutra, the Meditation on the Correct Teaching Sutra, and other sutras, or truly observes the rules of discipline expounded in the Hinayana and Mahayana sutras, such as the Āgama?
Without doubt they are all destined to “fall into the three evil paths,” or even sink into the hell of incessant suffering. How pitiful they are! You should tell them so and reproach them by citing the “Treasure Tower” chapter’s explanation of what “observing the precepts and practicing [the rules of discipline]”35 truly means. Then, pausing briefly, tell them that the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the heart of the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, contain the benefit amassed through the countless practices and meritorious deeds of all Buddhas throughout the three existences.
Then, how can these five characters not include the benefits obtained by observing all of the Buddhas’ precepts? Once the practitioner embraces this perfectly endowed wonderful precept, he cannot break it, even if he should try. It is therefore called the precept of the diamond chalice.36 ****Only by observing this wonderful precept have the Buddhas of the three existences become Buddhas endowed with the three bodies—the Dharma body, the reward body, and the manifested body, which are each without beginning or end.***The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai wrote of this, “In the various teachings, he [the Buddha] kept this secret and did not transmit it.”37 Now in the Latter Day of the Law, any person—whether wise or ignorant, priest or lay believer, or of high or low position—who embraces Myoho-renge-kyo and practices it in accordance with the Buddha’s teaching, cannot fail to gain the fruit of Buddhahood.
For precisely this reason, in reference to the votary of the Lotus Sutra in the impure and evil age after the Buddha’s passing, the sutra declares, “Such a person assuredly and without doubt will attain the Buddha way.”38 On the other hand, those who practice the provisional teachings against the admonition of Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions will definitely fall into the hell of incessant suffering.
Now that so wondrous a precept has been revealed, none of the precepts expounded in the pre-Lotus Sutra teachings or in the theoretical teaching have the slightest power to benefit people. Since they provide not the slightest benefit, it is totally useless to observe them, even for a single day.
"I feel the term "eternal Shakyamuni Buddha" is easily misunderstood as an individual who's reward body has always been at one with Thus Come One 3 body tathagatta. "
Your *feeling* is not teaching, Noel.
"The term 'Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha' refers to the historical buddha Shakyamuni who became one with the 3 body tathagatta at a point in time during the eternal past and will remain in this state until a point in time in the eternal future is more to the point ...lets be clear about this as the term Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha can create so much confusion if not understood in simple terms as what has been given just now!"
I accept Nichiren's reference to The Eternal Buddha, Shakyamuni.I an not the least bit confused. You are *adding* your own *common mortal* reasoning. That's where the confusion begins...
"Common mortals such as Shakyamuni and Nichiren experienced oneness with Thus Come One through cultivation in their past lives."
Please cite the Gosho passage, or passage from the Lotus Sutra that supports this statement. Unless I have missed it, Nichiren does not refer to his having experienced this "oneness with the Thus Come One" in his *past lives*.
"Common mortals possess the mutual possession of the 10 worlds can experience oneness with Thus Come One 3 bodied Tathagata through cultivation; faith, study and practice on a temporary to a more permanent basis depending on our practice. Nichiren makes this accessible by inscription of the 10 world Gohonzon that is the simultaneity of cause and effect which means the result of what we desire to achieve 'Enlightenment" is already inherent in the process of the correct faith, study and practice."
Again, this explanation of *experiencing oneness with the Thus Come One" is not taught by Nichiren. Here is what Nichiren himself wrote to the lay nun Myoshin (1275) "On Upholding Faith in the Gohonzon"
"I am entrusting you with a Gohonzon for the protection of your young child. This Gohonzon is the essence of the Lotus sutra and the eye of all the scriptures. It is like the sun and the moon in the heavens, a great ruler on earth, the heart in a human being, the wish-grating jewel among treasures and the pillar of a house. When we have this mandala with us, it is a rule that all the buddhas and gods will gather around and watch over us, protecting us like a shadow day and night, just as warriors guard their ruler, as parents love their children, as fish rely on water, as trees and grasses crave rain, and as birds depend on trees. You must trust in it with all your heart."
I accept, believe and put my faith and trust in The Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. I don't accept the opinions of others or believe in pronouncements made in the absence of clear scriptural references.
Posting your comment and my response from another recent post :
NOEL: ""The ignorance that comes from wrong thoughts and ideas lies on the behalf of others because they have not yet the capacity to percive the true entity of the mystic law..and the true aspect of all phenomena because There is something fundamentally wrong about their interpretation in how they understand the teachings of Nichiren and Shakyamuni "
ME; Noel,By what means have you perceived the true entity of the mystic law-- and the true aspect of all phenomena ?
In, "The Correct Method Of Contemplation" (1274- also known as "Determining the Similarities and differences between the Lotus Sutra and the Teaching of Concentration and Insight", [addressed to Sairen-bo, a learned priest formally of the Tendai school.] Nichiren discusses the influence of Zen school on the priests of the Tendai school at Mount Hiei. What you claim as a capacity you have attained bears a striking similarity to the "one Law of Zen"- "By observing his Law, one may see into one's true nature and gain enlightenment"- then Nichiren states :"And it is because persons of our time put faith in such great SLANDERS of the Law as these, the invention of the heavenly devil, that they act as they do."
I would be interested in your interpretation of this Gosho. To me, it is a clear explanation of the errors with regard to T'ien-t'ai's practice of *concentration and insight* committed by the Zen school, that influenced the Tendai priests of Nichiren's time and caused them to commit "great slanders of the Law".
Nichiren points out that T'ien-t'ai's was a practice of personal enlightenment and should be regarded as a *provisional* teaching, intended for people of the Middle Day of the Law who lacked the capacity to directly grasp the wonderful Law of the Lotus Sutra.--The practice for our time is chanting the daimoku, as Nichiren taught NOT contemplation and insight via meditation...
Nichiren says that the doctrines embraced and studied by these Tendai priests "are based upon the distorted views of Bodhidarma and the falsehoods of Shan-wu-wei" AND "If they were to abide by the interpretations and commentaries of T'ien-t'ai and Dengyo, then they would understand that the secret Law, realized within their own minds is that expressed in the one word myoho, or wonderful Law, and nothing else."
IF, you are claiming to have a superior capacity, which I am assuming is the result of some type of meditation that you practice; that you are directly perceiving what those of us who *only* chant the daimoku have not attained, then are you not, in effect, claiming that a Zen doctrine is superior to the Lotus Sutra. ?
*** Perhaps, Noel your referencing "On Attaining Buddhahood..." is a clue to your confusion about Nicheren's actual teaching?? Recall that that Mark described this Gosho like this: (further down on this thread)
MARK: "Regarding the Gosho On Attaining Buddhaahood In Thiis Very Body, i believe is a genuine Gosho but it should be pointed out that it falls in the category of "early writing" where Nichiren had not completely shed the remnants of his training in Tendai original enlightenment thought."
ON this other post,"A Passage For Anonymous"- you assert the reason for your differing interpretations of Nichiren's and Shakyamuni's teachings by saying>
NOEL:"The ignorance that comes from wrong thoughts and ideas lies on the behalf of others [katie, greg, mark--]because they have not yet the capacity to percive the true entity of the mystic law..and the true aspect of all phenomena"--AND YOU HAVE??
I call attention again, to an assertion you appear to be making regarding your "contemplation and insight"--
Is this Nichiren Shu doctrine?
By also claiming that yours is the correct, or again, *superior* interpretation of the writings of Nichiren and Shakyamuni's Lotus Sutra, or rather that there is something fundamentally wrong about how we understand these teachings, aren't you expressing a *revelation of your own mind* and claiming it surpasses the very clear, consistent and detailed teachings of Nichiren?
You may believe you are right making these bold and somewhat provocative assertions of your superior capacity, but after studying this 12 page Gosho , I believe the explanation for your *behavior* is related to errors Nichiren identified as the cause for slandering the wonderful Law.
Noel's presentation of Buddhiam and his understanding of it could not convert any reasonable person it lacks clear inside; he is talking of highest supposed teachings which he represents and he sends these on this Blog and then denies them as inferior the very teachings which send as evidence and which represent his Buddhism ( like the statetement of the world of Buddhahood and the "extinction" of Buddha which Noel send me as his Buddhism claming they are inferior teachings; well then why then you teach them and are part of your main teachings like supreme example the world of Buddhahood.?) and which you all follows; when a person presents his teachings from ones scriptures he is suppose to have faith in them; what is the use presenting something as your teachings if you dont beleive in them; what i have presented i believe in that; so Noel should convert himself first in his own teachings before trying converting others, because without one having clear understanding himself of ones scriptures and faith in the authors who wrote them he is just enduping being confused and also prone to mislead others!
Buddhahood: Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, WE CAN RESOLVE HARMONIOUSLY WHAT APPEAR FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE NINE WORLDS TO BE INSOLUBBLE CONTRADICTIONS. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a TRUE SELF, PERFECT FREEDOM from KARMIK BONDS THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!!.. , a LIFE PURIFIED OF ILLUSION, and ABSOLUTE HAPPINESS!!.
Your scripture doesn't say that the individual who have attain full Buddhahood will become again deluded and enter the lower forms of life on the contrary it seems to state that it will be extinct; this is what you send me " The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfil four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the Buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfil these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
YOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION; YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT; YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE. ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
You mistake the state of Buddhahood for an individual who becomes Buddha for ever
you need to get busy with your crayons as Katie suggested so you can understand the concept of ichinen sanzen which would be a major milestone in your spiritual evolution. You are pretty good with diagrams from what I have seen in the past, I still have them in a folder in the socks draw
To acquire the way of the Lotus sutra is not because we want to be Buddha for all eternity
"There is, however, one extremely important statement in the chapter that is not to be overlooked.
After greeting the Buddha, the Bodhisattva Universal Virtue asks how good men and women are to gain the truth of the Lotus Sutra after the Buddha's extinction.
Shakyamuni answers that there are four requisites to its acquisition:
"first, to be under the guardianship of the Buddha's;
second, to plant the roots of virtue;
third, to enter correct congregation;
fourth, to aspire after the salvation of all the living."
We may understand here that we must have faith that we are ever watched over and minded by the buddhas; that in our daily lives we must do good deeds and foster virtue and goodness in ourselves; that we must associate with others in right service to the teaching; and that we must be animated by a desire to deliver all people in the understanding that true salvation means salvation with everyone else."
People who may have been put off by the profundity of the teachings of the Lotus Sutra may here very well get the feeling that they too can make it. This is a most appropriate conclusion to the Sutra of the Lotus Flower of the Wonderful Law. Niwano's commentary
Encouragements of the Bodhisattva Universal Worthy
At that time Bodhisattva Universal Worthy, famed for his freely exercised transcendental powers, dignity, and virtue, in company with great bodhisattvas in immeasurable, boundless, indescribable numbers, arrived from the east. The lands that they passed through one and all quaked and trembled, jeweled lotus flowers rained down, and immeasurable hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of different kinds of music played. In addition, surrounded by a great assembly of numberless heavenly beings, dragons, yakshas, gandharvas, asuras, garudas, kimnaras, and mahoragas, human and nonhuman beings, each displayed his dignity, virtue, and transcendental powers.
When Bodhisattva Universal Worthy arrived in the midst of Mount Gridhrakuta in the saha world, he bowed his head to the ground in obeisance to Shakyamuni Buddha, circled around him to the right seven times, and said to the Buddha: “World-Honored One, when I was in the land of the buddha King Above Jeweled Dignity and Virtue, from far away I heard the Lotus Sutra being preached in this saha world. In company with this multitude of immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of bodhisattvas I have come to listen to and accept it. I beg that the world-honored one will preach it for us. And good men and good women in the time after the thus come one has entered extinction—how will they be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra?”
p.361The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfill four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered extinction, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfill these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered extinction they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
At that time Bodhisattva Universal Worthy said to the Buddha: “World-Honored One, in the evil and corrupt age of the last five-hundred-year period, if there is someone who accepts and upholds this sutra, I will guard and protect him, free him from decline and harm, see that he attains peace and tranquillity, and make certain that no one can spy out and take advantage of his shortcomings. No devil, devil’s son, devil’s daughter, devil’s minion, or one possessed by the devil, no yaksha, rakshasa, kumbhanda, pishacha, kritya, putana, vetada, or other being that torments humans will be able to take advantage of him.
“Whether that person is walking or standing, if he reads and recites this sutra, then at that time I will mount my six-tusked kingly white elephant and with my multitude of great bodhisattvas will proceed to where he is. I will manifest myself, offer alms, guard and protect him, and bring comfort to his mind. I will do this because I too want to offer alms to the Lotus Sutra. If when that person is seated he ponders this sutra, at that time too I will mount my kingly white elephant and manifest myself in his presence. If that person should forget a single phrase or verse of the Lotus Sutra, I will prompt him and join him in reading and reciting so that he will gain understanding. At that time the person who accepts, upholds, reads, and recites the Lotus Sutra will be able to see my body, will be filled with great joy, and will apply himself with greater diligence than ever. Because he has seen me, he will immediately acquire samadhis and dharanis. These are called the repetition dharani, the hundred, thousand, ten thousand, million repetition dharani, and the Dharma sound expedient dharani. He will acquire dharanis such as these.
"To acquire the way of the Lotus sutra is not because we want to be Buddha for all eternity "
Noel, speak for YOURSELF-- and please stop this pontificating as though YOU have some *superior *understanding--
It is you, and always you, who cannot accept the teachings as they are written; YOU and always you who attacks anyone pointing this out to you, and YOU, who continually confuses the True teaching with whatever esoteric nonsense you personally believe--.
And it is YOU that Stav described this way:
"Noel's presentation of Buddhiam and his understanding of it could not convert any reasonable person it lacks clear inside; " and: Stav - to Noel : " But I always felt that they were your ideas and I am glad I heard the correct teachings which I always felt like that to be true." and: Stav to Noel :"Hi Noel You don't feel peace neither speak in peace; and what you say about Katie look at your self as well if you feel offended then you too don't offend; It shows weakness from you the aggressive behaviour so lets continue instead in a more intelligent and mature way."
I am not going to sit by and allow you to enter even greater confusion than that which turned Stav OFF to listening to you BEFORE you posted your dialogue here.
When a person’s offense is minor, admonishment is sometimes called for, but at other times it may be unnecessary, for there are those who may correct themselves without being told. Reprove a person for slander when necessary, so that you can forestall for both of you the consequences of an offense. Then, you should forgive that person. The point is that even minor slanders may lead to serious ones, and then the effects one must suffer would be far worse. This is [what Chang-an means when he writes], “One who rids the offender of evil is acting as his parent.”
Many such examples of slander are also found among Nichiren’s disciples and lay believers. I am sure that you have heard about the lay priest Ichinosawa. Privately he is considered one of Nichiren’s followers, but publicly he still remains in the Nembutsu school. What should be done about his next life? Nevertheless, I have presented him with the ten volumes of the Lotus Sutra."
And there are those who correct others while they themselves continue to distort the teachings.... "Noel; I believe that when one reaches the stage where there is no retrogression means that when we are at the stage of being at one with the Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One Musa Sanjin Buddha there will be no retrogression.
Since we and all Bodhisattvas an Buddhas (historical Shakyamuni Buddha) throughout the multiverse are only temporary at one with the Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One at different durations throughout eternity either in a fully cultivated form or momentarily as in this life Only while believing the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren's teachings can one remain at one with the Trikāya, triple body of enlightenment , Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One, Musa Sanjin Buddha, where there is no retrogression".
THIS is not a teaching I have ever encountered in the writings of Nichiren. It does not sound like the Buddha's golden words in the Lotus Sutra.
It is Noel's belief and it is this explanation he offers after saying this to the person he is "Compassionately Converting":
Noel to Stav: "You mistake the state of Buddhahood for an individual who becomes Buddha for ever
you need to get busy with your crayons as Katie suggested so you can understand the concept of ichinen sanzen which would be a major milestone in your spiritual evolution. You are pretty good with diagrams from what I have seen in the past, I still have them in a folder in the socks draw[er]"
I did not suggest Stav *get busy with crayons*, I described a means for diagramming a supreme doctrine from the Lotus Sutra; 3,000 Realms in a Single Moment of Life!
Why not just let Noel expound his own beliefs and demean my sincere efforts to share the teachings of the Lotus Sutra? Why not just let Noel belittle and berate the person he is *compassionately converting* to his own beliefs?
"When the Buddha appeared in the world. these ninety-five groups of non-Buddhists conspired with the rulers, ministers, and common people of the sixteen major states of India, some of them reviling the Buddha, others attacking him or slaying his disciples and lay supporters in incalculable numbers. but the Buddha did not slacken his resolve, for he said, were he to cease preaching the Law because of intimidation from others, then all living beings alike would surely fall into hell. He was deeply moved by pity and had no thought of desisting. " "These non-Buddhist Teachings came about through a mistaken reading of the various sutras of the Buddhas who preceded Shakyamuni Buddha. " (" Three Tripitaka Masters Pray For Rain" WND vol. 1. p. 601)
In the same Gosho, Nichiren writes:
" 'Is this really true?' Some of my disciples may be asking. 'Does Nichiren really have an understanding superior to that of Jikaku and Chisho?' BUT I AM ONLY GOING BY WHAT THE BUDDHA PREDICTED IN THE SUTRAS."
I have no thought of desisting , I am moved by the Buddha's resolve and Nichiren's dedication to upholding the Lotus Sutra.
Stavros how easy it is to accept what is already in line with what we believe without having any room for doubt and make the common enemy of the one who doesnt share the same opinion as what you Mark and Katie have done to me over the Buddha of non retrogresion issue
Noel i follow the scriptures; the declarations of persons who had the experience these are the founders and authors of the scriptures through their own testimony; but i am over of these doubts on this subject i contemplate a lot on these things and came to accept what they say to be true. You know how much research i have done and delved deeply on these things so as to come to this conclusion and agreement.
Nichiren made many enemies because of his pronouncements in the following example in the same way as I have for daring to go against a theory of mainstream belief that a Buddha can never retrogress
“Monks who study only the writings refer to those who are concerned only with the scholastic aspects without understanding the true meaning of the scriptures through wisdom; and Zen monks who are concerned only with formality refer to those who are concerned with the conventions of meditation without firmly grasping the fundamentals.
This is the same as the meditation of Brahmans, who will never gain complete freedom from delusions and evil passions. T’ien-t’ai’s statement that some Zen monks concentrate only on meditation is an understatement sympathetic to them. In actuality, they lack both practice in meditation as well as wisdom to understand the doctrine.
Those who practice Zen consider only the meditation important and pay little attention to the study of doctrines. They interpretet sutras from the viewpoint of meditation in such an absurd way as to say that the eight-fold Evil Path and the Eight Winds make the sixteen-feet tall Buddha, and the Five Elements of all existences and the Three Poisons of greed, anger, and stupidity make the Eight-fold Evil Path. They confuse the six sensory organs with the Six superhuman Powers, or confuse the basic elements of the material world (earth, water, fire, and wind) with the Four Noble Truths.
That such interpretations of the sutras are the worst of all is beyond question, an absurdity not worthy of discussion.” Nichiren
So its just not my interpretation for having the freedom of choice to believe in the non retrogression of a Buddha that doesn't fit into your idea of World religion its also Nichiren's views that you have disagreement. You disagree with others and give your reasons why in the same way Nichiren does. Just read what you have said to me. How could I ever embrace a world religion that doesn't respect the individuals freedom of choice for what they deem as being reasonable
AND THAT IS WHY": YOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION; YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT; YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE. ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
I have more faith and positive outlook at the prospect of full enlightenment as a permanent individual attainment inspite of the universal aspect of ignorance still in existence, although in enlightennt state the illusion which appear to half awake will be perceived differently as potentially inherent with perfect involved essence to be realized in time.
My Spirituality is positive and dynamic with a faith of total individual freedom from illusion just like the world of Buddhahood states and you disbelieve giving it different interpretation while denying the open clear statement it makes"
I'm not angry at you anymore for having your beliefs that cause you to be angry at me for having mine. I don't feel threatened at all but rather compassion towards you and others that berate me for my beliefs that I believe are in alignment with the profound teachings of the Lotus Sutra that Nichiren perceived and was vilified for doing so. It feels like to me what has been happening is as the old case of "history repeating itself"
Our perception is relative to our awareness according to our capacity. Much could be said about that and would be better left to avoid an unpleasant exchange as what has has been happening at times throughout the posts.
So why you want to have always the last word over all that you are right, making and placing your self like someone who got the highest truth the most profound truth that only you can grasp from the scriptures while others quoted directly from the scriptures the clearest meaning; why are you so stubborn, even if Sakyamuni himself was to appear to you and tell you that my attainment is without retrogression you would argue and defend your view against him trying to convince him otherwise. Just give up Noel you have been defeated so stop the dramas and pretention; stand up and be a man and follow the correct teachings.
Our perception is relative to our awareness according to our capacity. Much could be said about that and would be better left to avoid an unpleasant exchange as what has has been happening at times throughout the posts.
So your capacity is greater then that of the scriptures; if that is the case then why following or placing your self as a follower and representative of Nichiren Buddhism if you go against his Buddhism; your fellow Buddhist practitioners proved from scriptures that you are wrong and you could not apart from your imagination produce any scriptural evidence to support your assumption. The way you insisting against the scriptures only shows that you are not really interested in what is the truth but only In your ego being right, if you argue that it is not from your ego but truth which you see from the scriptures you have to present the scriptures to prove your statement otherwise you should better follow some other religion which shares your views! Because definitely this is not your religion and you don't represent it with your believes!
"Monks who study only the writings refer to those who are concerned only with the scholastic aspects without understanding the true meaning of the scriptures through wisdom;"
There are many different ways to interpret scripture within Nichiren Budhism if it wasn't so there wouldn't be so many sects and even amongst them there are different interpretations that they think might or is the true meaning. And on top of that they accuse one another of slander if others interpretations don't agree with theirs. You know how it is Stavros it happens everywhere
But till now Noel it is only you who believes or perhaps your wife Kumiko too in these interpretations (which are only from you both)of Nichiren, you haven't shown no other proof!
Stavros the wisdom of Thus Come One is difficult to believe and difficult to understand
This is where the saying comes in that sounds boastful and arrogant "Its lonely at the top"
Even though much proof has been provided by Nichiren in his vast writings if one lacks wisdom we will mistake yellow rocks for Gold Nuggets
“Shariputra, in the worlds of the ten directions, there are not two vehicles, much less three! Shariputra, the buddhas appear in evil worlds of five impurities. These are the so-called impurity of the age, impurity of desire, impurity of living beings, impurity of view, and impurity of life span.
“Shariputra, when the age is impure and the times are chaotic, then the defilements of living beings are grave, they are greedy and jealous and put down roots that are not good. Because of this, the buddhas, utilizing the power of expedient means, apply distinctions to the one buddha vehicle and preach as though it were three.
“Shariputra, if any of my disciples should claim to be an arhat or a pratyekabuddha and yet does not heed or understand that the buddhas, the thus come ones, simply teach and convert the bodhisattvas, then he is no disciple of mine, he is no arhat or pratyekabuddha.
“Again, Shariputra, if there should be monks or nuns who claim that they have already attained the status of arhat, that these are their last incarnations, that they have reached the final nirvana, and that therefore they have no further intention of seeking supreme perfect enlightenment, then you should understand that such as these are all persons of overbearing arrogance.
Why do I say this? Because if there are monks who have truly attained the status of arhat, then it would be unthinkable that they should fail to believe this Law. The only exception would be in a time after the Buddha had passed away, when there was no buddha present in the world.
Why is this? Because after the Buddha has passed away it will be difficult to find those who can embrace, read, recite, and understand the meaning of a sutra such as this. But if they encounter another buddha, then they will attain decisive understanding with regard to this Law."
You provide no proof, just your imaginations; you have been presented from scriptures with truth that proof that you are both wrong so just give up your ego's then you may be free to progress! THE END
Have you asked your friend SGIA self appointed spokesman Safwan Zabalawi what his views are on wheather it is possible that someone who has become a Buddha will never retrogess ???
Have you asked your friend SGIA self appointed spokesman Safwan Zabalawi what his views are on wheather it is possible that someone who has become a Buddha will never retrogess ???
Pre Lotus Sutra and non Buddhist teachings really don't get this;
Further proof of the truth that ignorance and enlightenment are one in essence is found in the passage in the Lotus Sutra that reads, “These phenomena are part of an abiding Law, [and] the characteristics of the world are constantly abiding.”8 Great Perfection of Wisdom says, “Enlightenment and ignorance are not different things, not separate things. To understand this is what is called the Middle Way.”
There are many passages of proof asserting that the mystic principle of the true aspect of reality possesses two aspects, the defiled and the pure. But none can surpass the one in the Flower Garland Sutra that says, “The mind, the Buddha, and all living beings—these three things are without distinction,” or the passage in the Lotus Sutra that describes the true aspect of all phenomena.
The Great Teacher Nan-yüeh says, “The entity of the mind is endowed with two aspects, the defiled and the pure. However, it does not have two different forms but is single in nature and without distinction.”9 And the example of the mirror10 that he gives truly presents a thorough explanation of the subject. For a more detailed understanding, one may also refer to his interpretations in The Mahayana Method of Concentration and Insight.
Another good explanation is given in the sixth volume of Miao-lo’s Annotations on “The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra,” in the passage that reads: “While the three thousand realms remain latent [in ordinary beings], they are all designated by the term ‘ignorance.’ But when the three thousand realms all manifest themselves as the result [of Buddhahood], then they are all designated by the term ‘eternal p.419happiness.’ However, because the three thousand realms themselves remain unchanged, ignorance is essentially one with enlightenment. Since the three thousand realms all remain constant, they possess both entity and function.” This commentary makes the matter perfectly clear. - The Entity of the Mystic Law
This is exactly what you still dont undersatnd and i try to meke a point to you that i do believe and accept what your teachings is stating and that is not a provisional teaching it is a teaching of the now of your Buddhism that the World of Buddhahood is " Buddhahood: Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, WE CAN RESOLVE HARMONIOUSLY WHAT APPEAR FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE NINE WORLDS TO BE INSOLUBBLE CONTRADICTIONS. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a TRUE SELF, PERFECT FREEDOM from KARMIK BONDS THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!!.. , a LIFE PURIFIED OF ILLUSION, and ABSOLUTE HAPPINESS!!. This is what i accept whole heartedly;
I dont accept the teachings which you claim and have no scriptural support that all the Buddhas will eventiuly fall into delusion and lower forms of life which you have stated in the previous mail; and on the contrary you send me something which claims that Buddha entered extinction; Your scripture doesn't say that the individual who have attain full Buddhahood will become again deluded and enter the lower forms of life on the contrary it seems to state that it will be extinct; this is what you send me " The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfil four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the Buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfil these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
This i dont belive that above i believe as i told you many times in full realization of Buddhahood and enlightenment in this very body on earth, one no need to go into high heavens (* unles one wants ) to attain full enlightenment and freedom from delusion and lower nature , neither one need to enter extinction beyond the manifestation into some formless Substance or Essence to be fully free; on the contrary to you i believe in a total perfection unlike you who believes that there cant be full freedom and eternal in ones individual attainment and that is why my last mail i send bellow to express that. I have more faith and positive outlook at the prospect of full enlightenmet as a permanent individual attainment inspite of the universal aspect of ignorance still in existence, although in enlightennt state the illusion which appear to half awake will be percieved differently as potentially inherent with perfect involed essence to be realized in time.
My Spirituality is positive and dynamic witha faith of total individual freedom from illusion just like the world of Buddhahod states and you disbelieve giving it diferenet interpretation while denying the open clear statement it makes.
AND THAT IS WHY": YOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION; YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT; YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE. ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
However, because the three thousand realms themselves remain unchanged, ignorance is essentially one with enlightenment. Since the three thousand realms all remain constant, they possess both entity and function.” This commentary makes the matter perfectly clear. - The Entity of the Mystic Law
You state the universal affair will remain same or constant, are you the same and constant or are you changing..? the worlds or states of consiousness may be there for those who manifest them but there are also the worlds or states of the Buddhahood which can transform the other nine and this is what we aspire to attain, to become situated in our True Self and transform from that state of consciousness the rest of our being including the nine "worlds" . You just keep stating that the illusion and enlightenment is one; they come from the One essence but they are very different in consciousness and application and this is what we want to manifest, the enlightent state of our True Being the Illusion is the shadow aspect NOT the TRUE BEING or SELF or AMALA; there is individual change and progress within this universal happening the universal will keep happening but in that happening there is individual growth into perfection of our true nature; That you seem to disregard as which grows and change upward and forward and not backward and downward, it is a evolution and manifestaion of what is innate the perfect Buddha nature; our goal is to manifest that and we are on the individual journey within this universal being. And that is ultimtelly the individual attainment when reached full Buddhahood irreversable;
You are rebuking Tientai, Dengyo, and Nichiren, and Shakyamuni who preached the Lotus Sutra
"ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!"
You are a MENTAL CASE who clings to Hinayana provisional Mahayana teachings and Vedanta teachings, even though you have been fortunate enough to encounter the Lotus Sutra, you cannot advance beyond Vedanta, Hinayana or provisional Mahayana views. You are convinced that your views are correct, and even worse you slander the votaries of the Lotus Sutra which will cause you severe karmic retribution according to the scriptures that you twists and slanders to your own demise
When it comes to understanding the Lotus Sutra you are no more than an infant who cannot understand the principles of cause and effect like your arrogant Vedanta mentors proud boastful Brahman inch worms of the Vedanta school that you identify with.
But although you make your way upward bit by bit like an inchworm, you will fall back from the heaven where there is neither thought nor no thought, and descend instead into the three evil paths.
Nor will you succeed in remaining on the level of the heavens, though you believe that once having attained that level you will never descend from it. This is what Nichiren says about the likes of you who are full of hatred towards the Lotus Sutra. The words you have written prove your scornful declaration of Nichiren Buddhism which has sealed your fate according to the scriptures unless you repent
Noel, I am confused-- are you claiming that Buddhahood is or is not irreversible?
If one who had attained Buddhaood, *chooses* to reincarnate in a lower world, life state, for the purpose of leading others to Buddhaood-- THAT would not be Buddhahood reversal, would it? Wouldn't it merely be a prime example of *total freedom* to use one's life exactly for the purpose one has freely predetermined from perfect enlightenment about LIFE, itself ??
This is a sticky point-- it is a matter, I think of understanding that when one attains Buddhahood, one does still possesses the other nine worlds-- .
think about it this way, IF attaining Buddhahood is possible in one's present form, we have to accept that all of the other nine worlds are going to remain intact. Therefore, when all 9 have been *illuminated* by the world of Buddhaood-- EACH has the potential for a *higher purpose*--
Thus Buddhahood entails Total Freedom to choose how one uses each life state for greater good-- having perfect enlightenment, I believe , would mean full understanding of dependent origination and our connection to ALL living beings and indeed to all life phenomena-- The possibilities of generating ultimate good-- for the sake of all humanity and all of life, itself-- well, pretty much beyond calculation... or comprehension--
Katie I agree with all that you say in what you have so far presented to Stavros and to me just now and I would like to have this opportunity to commend you at how graciously you present the teachings that we hold so dear
"Rather than having a concept in mind of what the ultimate attainment IS in actuality, I practice to reveal the True Reality moment to moment, thus deepending my faith in the teaching, the one and only teaching preached by Shakyamuni Buddha that predicts Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime."
I am more than happy that Shakyamuni Buddha predicted Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime
"From my own understanding, there is no regression from the attainment of Buddhahood-- only more unimaginable possibilities for unlimited potential to use this highest state of life, in this world and beyond"
If we as individuals with our own unique karmic pattern have existed from a time that has no beginning and a time that has no end, wouldn't it stand to reason that we have already been Buddha's in the infinite past and can become Buddha's in this present life time as well as life times in the infinite future
After all eternity is a hell of a long time and their are infinite possibilities of what could happen. There will always be temptation and a free mind to choose and understand the gravity of our consequences.To think that we will forever be the same heavenly realm like some Vedanta, Buddhist Monotheistic religions etc. I believe is a tab too optimistic. Nichiren says that we were cast down to this Saha world from higher realms by Buddha's for the crimes we committed there
"Pre- Lotus Sutra teachings identified the world the Buddhahood, but the Buddha taught that it was not possible for ALL to attain this ultimate awakening and pure state of existence. The Lotus Sutra teaching of the mutual inclusive 10 worlds changed that --opening The Way for All-- by extension, the 3,000 realms in a single life moment, also ONLY taught in the Lotus Sutra, further illuminates the truth that indeed, ALL possess the potential that is inherent eternally in ALL life, and this is just the basic "difficult to believe and difficult to understand" teaching that is only in The Eternal Buddha's highest teaching, the Lotus Sutra."
Even though we may not yet be a fully cultivated Buddha's who have reached the 24 hours 7 days a week, year in year out stage, we can momentary enter into that same state of Buddhahood through the 3,000 realms in a single life moment because of the mutual inclusive 10 worlds then the other 9 worlds start to shine because of our dynamic Buddha nature that becomes activated through our practice and faith.
Even though I'm far from being a full blown Buddha I rejoice in in being at this stage of temporary enlightenment and the hope that this this life condition of Buddhahood is always available (even though at times I may not be aware of it) throughout the never ending cycles of birth and death of eternal life
Noel, your response has given me deeper insight into the stumbling block that changed the tone of your discussion, and sent you and Stav over the cliff, so to speak. It is, I have to admit, very courageous of you and Stav to share your exchange here. With appreciation, I am offering another perception, based on what I have studied and my own experience.
It seems that Stav's overtly negative response was in regard to your inserting your personal views based on your own reasoning with regard to conceptualizing the attainment of Buddhahood. Just as you have responded to my comment above, you have also stated in your discussion/debate with Stav, as follows:
"If we as individuals with our own unique karmic pattern have existed from a time that has no beginning and a time that has no end, wouldn't it stand to reason that we have already been Buddha's in the infinite past and can become Buddha's in this present life time as well as life times in the infinite future."
The fact that you and I disagree on this issue, is not as important as considering that we are employing our own imperfect reasoning capabilities to describe what neither of us could possibly know with any degree of certainty. However, we differ in another, more important aspect, that is; your conjecture is purely your own idea, while I am adhering to what Nichiren has actually written , and NOT written, based on the True Buddha's teachings.
I cannot find a single reference in the Gosho that describes regression from attaining Buddhahood, but more informative, since maybe I missed something, is the example of the many different incarnations of Shakyamuni, who attained Buddhahood in *time without beginning *. It can only be said that his many appearances in this saha world were expedient means for awakening human beings, causing them to seek *The Way*, and teaching various practices that suited their capacities. In each of his existences, he created causes that *lengthened his life span* and brought benefit to others.
From the perspective of 3,000 realms in a single life moment, once Buddhood is the predominant life state, all aspects of one's life will exhibit the effect of enlightenment - The 5 components of which we are comprised would all manifest the pure world of Buddhaood-- most significant would be our consciousness. Consider, then what would remain in our *karma storehouse* and how this would effect each of the 10 factors-- Would there be any internal causes or latent effects of *slander*? What would enter our thoughts and give rise to actions that would degrade the *True entity* in ourselves and others?
So, while I do not agree that it is reasonable to assume we all have been Buddha's in past existences, I say this based on the teachings Nichiren documented, which he based on the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren describes the evil influences and karmic impediments that will prevent a practitioner from attaining Buddhahood. He describes and exemplifies the practice for expiating sins of slander, and describes Shakyamuni's devotion to saving all living beings as the *ideal filial conduct* that no other Buddha exhibited. The best example we have of the life of a Buddha is Shakyamuni. Based on Nichiren's teachings, we only have reason to believe that attaining Buddhahood is to attain all of the benefits Shakyamuni attained-- and though we can never know the full extent of those benefits, there is no example of *losing or giving up* the life state of a Buddha.
The next paragraph from your response to me above is even more illustrative of the issue I am raising with regard to the difference between sharing *the teachings* and sharing from *one's own mind*
"After all eternity is a hell of a long time and their are infinite possibilities of what could happen. There will always be temptation and a free mind to choose and understand the gravity of our consequences.To think that we will forever be the same heavenly realm like some Vedanta, Buddhist Monotheistic religions etc. I believe is a tab too optimistic. Nichiren says that we were cast down to this Saha world from higher realms by Buddha's for the crimes we committed there."
Nichiren doesn't say we were Buddhas in the higher realms where we committed offenses that led to transmigration in this saha world. By the same token, Nichiren does not describe The True Buddha as being in a *heavenly realm*. The world [realm] of *heaven* is also called, *rapture * and is the 6th of the lower worlds.
Again, if you need to conceptualize what it is like to be a Buddha-- Shakyamuni is the best model-- not once, since *time without beginning* has Shakyamuni forsaken Buddhahood. Consider Nichiren's vow based on faith in the Lotus Sutra "whether tempted by good or threatened by evil..."
I think you owe Stav an apology for berating him for slander of Nichiren and The Lotus Sutra. His negativity was evoked from the personal beliefs you shared, NOT in response to the True Teachings. Whether or not he takes faith in the Lotus Sutra, is a separate matter from his current thoughts and beliefs regarding it. It does not appear that he is slandering the Lotus Sutra, but that differences have arisen between his understanding and your presentation. In other words, he is upset about your personal beliefs, so you can't claim to be under attack for *the sake of the Lotus Sutra*-- and likewise, Stav is not slandering you.
When we share the teachings of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra Buddhism it is imperative that we don't add any of our own personal opinions or theories-- about the *teachings* themselves. Receiving input from *good friends of the Dharma* is indispensable - recall that I received a much needed rebuke here not so long ago. I am sure it is not the last, in fact, I sincerely hope it is not. Just as I hope to be challenged on anything I have shared that diverges from Nichiren's teachings.
We all have our arbitrary opinions don't we Katie, I overestimated your capacity and I feel that you are way out of line on some things once more as you have been in the past and have been reprimanded for it.
We are better off listening to Nichiren and make up our own mind about it. The conclusions we draw are relative and subjective to our experience . The same goes for individuals so with schools of thought with their myriad of interpretations and it goes on for ever and ever and never stops.
Some have revelation through scripture that aren't just in black and white that have profound meaning to it when we connect the story lines
“Unless one perceives the nature of one’s life, one cannot eradicate one’s grave offenses.”This passage implies that, unless one perceives the nature of one’s life, one’s practice will become an endless, painful austerity. Therefore, such students of Buddhism are condemned as non-Buddhist. Great Concentration and Insight states that, although they study Buddhism, their views are no different from those of non-Buddhists.
Whether you chant the Buddha’s name, recite the sutra, or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits and roots of goodness in your life. With this conviction you should strive in faith. The Vimalakīrti Sutra states that, when one seeks the Buddhas’ emancipation in the minds of ordinary beings, one finds that ordinary beings are the entities of enlightenment, and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. It also states that, if the minds of living beings are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds.
It is the same with a Buddha and an ordinary being. When deluded, one is called an ordinary being, but when enlightened, one is called a Buddha. This is similar to a tarnished mirror that will shine like a jewel when polished. A mind now clouded by the illusions of the innate darkness of life is like a tarnished mirror, but when polished, it is sure to become like a clear mirror, reflecting the essential nature of phenomena and the true aspect of reality. Arouse deep faith, and diligently polish your mirror day and night. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo.
Thank you Katie for clarifying Nichiren's teachings and for your bravery to stand up and putting things in right place and order. I am very glad in hearing from someone who follows and practices Nichiren Buddhism a dynamic and positive realization of the teachings.
Thank you for seeing it and understanding that I was not being disrespectful or hostile to the true teachings; I was not and neither am now hostile to Noel but when it comes to the teachings, to the Ideal, to the Principles of truth and their statements I am firm in standing up for them; these are our only hope, our shelter, our guidance, our inspiration, our courage and strength our deliverance into lasting perfection and we should sincerely follow them as seekers of truth and persons who want to transform our lives into That Truth; if for some reason or other we are not able or not ready to follow them at least we should not distorted them or degrade them to something else from what they are clearly stating. We should instead hold them in front of our vision as our highest ideal and prospect.
"From my own understanding, there is no regression from the attainment of Buddhahood-- only more unimaginable possibilities for unlimited potential to use this highest state of life, in this world and beyond"
Beautiful I share full heartedly the prospect of Eternal ongoing ever increasing Perfection!
From the perspective of 3,000 realms in a single life moment, once Buddhood is the predominant life state, all aspects of one's life will exhibit the effect of enlightenment - The 5 components of which we are comprised would all manifest the pure world of Buddhaood-- most significant would be our consciousness. Consider, then what would remain in our *karma storehouse* and how this would effect each of the 10 factors-- Would there be any internal causes or latent effects of *slander*? What would enter our thoughts and give rise to actions that would degrade the *True entity* in ourselves and others?
That's so True!
The best example we have of the life of a Buddha is Shakyamuni. Based on Nichiren's teachings, we only have reason to believe that attaining Buddhahood is to attain all of the benefits Shakyamuni attained-- and though we can never know the full extent of those benefits, there is no example of *losing or giving up* the life state of a Buddha.
How can it since they want all of us to attaint to that it must be something wonderful and lasting!
I know what Noel's seems to be the problem on this issue he thinks if the deluded aspect is also part of me as he many times expressed then if I am all perfect what will happen to that reality; the whole cannot exist without its absence; also if I am eternal and I was not a Buddha before then what I was or where I was..? and if I become That eternally what will happen to the rest of the show and I may get board after a time and want to experience delusion and do it all over again ( as once he said that ) But that is all because of the present state of human mind being unable to envisage the experience of such a existence of Buddhahood.
Sincere practice and purification will unable us to see clearly into the meaning of the scriptures.
Thank you again Katie for your inspiration and uplifting perception and understanding of your scriptures.
Noel, please provide a passage from Nichiren's writings that supports this statement:
"We are better off listening to Nichiren and make up our own mind about it."
I am refuting it based on:
"Therefore in the sixth volume of the Nirvana Sutra, his final teaching delivered in the grove of sal trees, our merciful father Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings, said, 'Rely on the Law and not upon persons. Even when the great bodhisattva such as Universal Worthy and Manjushri, men who have returned to the stage of near-perfect enlightenment, expound the Buddhist teachings, if they do not do so with the sutra text in hand, then one should not heed them'."
Unless you can cite clear evidence that The True Buddha, Shakyamuni, preached the *teaching* you are propagating re: the regression from the attainment of Buddhahood, your *own mind*-- even though you chant the daimoku, is not in accord with the Buddha, and therefore is not to be relied upon.
Ask for Marks opinoin on this matter. I would like to hear his opinion on whether it is possible to regress once we attain buddhahood and i dont mean in the temporary sence as in the mutual possession of the ten worlds in eternal moment
"Some have revelation through scripture that aren't just in black and white that have profound meaning to it when we connect the story lines ."
I think you will find that so -called, *revelations of the mind* are the basis for the teachings of Zen, which Nichiren thoroughly refuted from the strict admonishments in the Lotus Sutra against following any teaching that does not accord with the Buddha's *golden words*.
As you have noted, I have been admonished on this very site. I was, in fact, guilty of exactly what I perceive you are doing here, that is; responding and criticizing from my own *personal views*., and my emotional attachment to these views. It was the Gosho quotes Mark provided, in support of his position that caused me to reflect and to study the matter more in depth. Mark's position was firmly grounded in Nichiren's writings and in Nichiren's own actions, behavior. I encountered nothing in my study that supported my criticism of his speech and actions. I conceded and redacted my argument, , with appreciation for the opportunity to correct a serious error on my part.
If you are going to admonish, or reprimand me, please do so with the precise scriptural reference that supports your "revelations". Having failed to do this in your debate with Stav, you mistook his disapproval of your *personal view* as his disregard of the True teaching.
As Stav points out in his response to me, "But that is all because of the present state of human mind being unable to envisage the experience of such a existence of Buddhahood. "
Isn't this simply our shared karmic impediment? Our deluded, common mortal minds can believe in the Lotus Sutra,, but If even those at the stage of near-perfect enlightenment are not to be heeded UNLESS quoting from the text of the Lotus Sutra, how can any of us claim we have "revelations through scripture that have profound meaning"- though not recorded in the sutra? I assume that is what you meant by , "aren't just in black and white." ??
I will end here with one final *suggestion*, based upon Stav's own clearly stated response to my input;
"Thank you for seeing it and understanding that I was not being disrespectful or hostile to the true teachings; I was not and neither am now hostile to Noel but when it comes to the teachings, to the Ideal, to the Principles of truth and their statements I am firm in standing up for them; these are our only hope, our shelter, our guidance, our inspiration, our courage and strength our deliverance into lasting perfection and we should sincerely follow them as seekers of truth and persons who want to transform our lives into That Truth; if for some reason or other we are not able or not ready to follow them at least we should not distorted them or degrade them to something else from what they are clearly stating. We should instead hold them in front of our vision as our highest ideal and prospect. "
I sincerely hope you can make an apology to Stav for berating him in such a harsh manner. He deserves nothing less than respect and appreciation for openly and honestly engaging on this forum, helping us to deepen our faith and praising the Lotus Sutra.
My sincere thanks to you both, for this very enlightening experience !!
"...one who helps eradicate slander of the Law will ascend to the state from which there can be no retrogression. Thus the passage tells us that the monk Realization of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Kāshyapa, and that King Possessor of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Shakyamuni."
and
The sutra states, “Those persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in various Buddha lands, constantly reborn in company with their teachers,”6 and “If one stays close to the teachers of the Law, one will speedily gain the bodhisattva way. By following and learning from these p.748teachers one will see Buddhas as numerous as Ganges sands.”7 A commentary says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”8 Another commentary says, “In the beginning one followed this Buddha or bodhisattva and formed a bond with him, and so it will be through this Buddha or bodhisattva that one will attain one’s goal.”9 Above all, be sure to follow your original teacher so that you are able to attain Buddhahood. Shakyamuni Buddha is the original teacher for all people, and moreover, he is endowed with the virtues of sovereign and parent. Because I have expounded this teaching, I have been exiled and almost killed. As the saying goes, “Good advice grates on the ear.” But still I am not discouraged. The Lotus Sutra is like the seed, the Buddha like the sower, and the people like the field. If you deviate from these principles, not even I can save you in your next life.'
and
The “Life Span” chapter says, “I am the father of this world because I cure my deranged sons.”7 The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.... Just as all the hundred rivers flow into the sea, so is one drawn by one’s connection with the Buddha and born in company with the Buddha.”
and
"Answer: When the Buddha was in the world and was seated beneath the bodhi tree, he gauged the capacities of the people of his time. He perceived that if he preached the Lotus Sutra immediately, then people would slander it and would fall into the evil paths. If he waited for forty and more years before preaching it, however, they would not slander it, but instead would advance to the first of the ten stages of security, where there is no more retrogression, and would continue to advance until they had reached the stage of perfect enlightenment. But he also realized that, in the muddy age of the Latter Day of the Law, the capacities of the people would be such that not one person in ten thousand would be capable of reaching the first of the ten stages of security. Likewise he knew that those who would preach the teachings in that time, not being Buddhas, would have great difficulty correctly gauging the capacities of the people. Therefore the Buddha gave permission for such persons to preach the Lotus Sutra from the very beginning so that people could establish some connection with the sutra, whether it was one of rejection or of acceptance."
“Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.” “I am the only person”— Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”
I believe that since even Bodhisattvas can reach the stage of non-retrogression, Buddhas do not retrogress.
The question remains: Are we Buddhas? if so we will never retrogress. Should one abandon the Lotus Sutra, one is neither a Bodhisattva nor Buddha and rapidly retrogresses.
I noticed in the quotes it never said 'Never Retrogress. This your opinion and others that share same capacity as yourself, so in this case Katie's statement applies to the whole lot of you. "I think you will find that so -called, *revelations of the mind* are the basis for the teachings of Zen, which Nichiren thoroughly refuted from the strict admonishments in the Lotus Sutra against following any teaching that does not accord with the Buddha's *golden words*.
You are all guilty as hell for own arbitrary opinions that you accuse me of. Wake up and have a good look at yourselves
"In the Vimalakīrti Sutra we read: “Vimalakīrti once more questioned Manjushrī, saying, ‘What are the seeds of Buddhahood?’ Manjushrī replied, ‘All the delusions and defilements are the seeds of Buddhahood. Even though a person commits the five cardinal sins and is condemned to the hell of incessant suffering, he is still capable of conceiving the great desire for the way.’”
The same sutra also says: “Good man, let me give you a metaphor. The plains and highlands will never bring forth the stems and blossoms of the blue lotus or the water lily. But the muddy fields that are low-lying and damp—that is where you will find these flowers growing.”
It also says: “One who has already become an arhat and achieved the level of truth that goes with arhatship can never conceive the desire for the way and gain Buddhahood. He is like a man who has destroyed the five sense organs and therefore can never again enjoy the five delights that go with them.”
The point of this sutra is that the three poisons of greed, anger, and foolishness can become the seeds of Buddhahood, and the five cardinal sins such as the killing of one’s father can p.229likewise become the seeds of Buddhahood. Even if the high plains should bring forth blue lotus flowers, the persons of the two vehicles would never attain Buddhahood. The text is saying that, when the goodness of the persons of the two vehicles is compared with the evils of ordinary people, it will be found that, though the evils of ordinary people can lead to Buddhahood, the goodness of the persons of the two vehicles never can. The various Hinayana sutras censure evil and praise good. But this sutra, the Vimalakīrti, condemns the goodness of persons of the two vehicles and praises the evils of ordinary people. It would almost appear that it is not a Buddhist scripture at all, but rather the teachings of some non-Buddhist school. But the point is that it wants to make absolutely clear that the persons of the two vehicles can never become Buddhas." - The Opening of the Eyes
Nichiren had revelations of the mind based on the study of the Sutras "*revelations of the mind* are the basis for the teachings of Zen, which Nichiren thoroughly refuted from the strict admonishments in the Lotus Sutra against following any teaching that does not accord with the Buddha's *golden words*."
The Buddha's golden words are also revelation from the mind that he experienced from practicing spiritual paths of the ancient wisdom of Vedanta that is said to have originated in Himalayas over 10,000 years ago. Shakyamini's teachings were said to be orally transmitted until they were written down to form sutras and have been changed around depending upon which school had hold of them as what happened/s with the good ol Bible that carries many universal truths as does many of world the religions and spiritual paths that I appreciate
I do thank Stavros for helping me, which is short of an apology for helping in making it clear to what I've been dealing with here and that my understanding is not representive of the Nichiren Buddhists here on Eagle Peak or may be any where else but that hasn't changed my view on how I see things. Good luck to all you wanabee forever non retrogressing Buddhas
Hi Noel, Just to be clear, iIs this your refutation : ??
"I noticed in the quotes it never said 'Never Retrogress."
Here is a quote:
“Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.” “I am the only person”— Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is NO RETROGRESSION ” [my caps]
Can this be proven?
I suggested the 3,000 realms in a single life moment *exercise* for both you and Stav. Via a diagram, a visual, it is easier to appreciate that, for instance, *consciousness* does not exist apart from the other 4 components that unite *temporarily * to form an individual human being., or the 10 factors that describe how life functions in each of the ten worlds-- etc.. . way too complicated to write in a narrative, BUT, you will see, I promise you, why it is that the statement "NO RETROGRESSION" is based on the doctrines of the Lotus Sutra-- NOT just a revelation of mind.
Stay in the ring-- you won't be sorry... Best, Katie
Hi Stavros as long as some good comes out of all of this its worth it as things are not always what they seem. Life is full of surprises and whether we like them or not it is how we deal with them.
You have criticised Nichirens presentation of concepts and some of their meanings in the previous posts that some that are reading these recent posts are oblivious to
This is why I'm unsure if your following statements were souly directed towards my interpretation or does it also include Nichirens writings
Thanks
AND THAT IS WHY": YOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION; YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT; YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE. ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
Hi Noel, I think you are being unreasonable here; first of all are you not rejoicing that this attainment of Buddhahood is permanent and ever growing? Didn't you say to Katie in one of your reply " I am more than happy that Shakyamuni Buddha predicted Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime" So you say you are happy for Buddhas prediction of perfect enlightenment in one very lifetime and yet you don't agree with that and you seem upset by statement of non-retrogression or perfect enlightenment which really means something lasting and not transitory and imperfect?
I don't know why you still seem to insist that way, even after so much proof shown to you; if that is from an ego just like some philosophers have and they always want to be different and that gives them a sense that they posses something so profound and their understanding is so deep that know one else can understand and accept, I think this shouldn't have a place here among us who strive for a perfection for our selves and others and we should rejoice with such assurances from scriptures about our ultimate prospect and goal of life! Why are you unhappy about it and contrary for such a great thing? If your objection is based because you have doubt or because you came to such a personal conclusions from your understanding then don't you wish to harmonize your understanding with such a beautiful proposal of eternal freedom and non-retrogression?
Also, the example above I feel you quite misunderstand, the Buddha nature is everywhere it cannot be destroyed you cant lose it or get rid of it, it is your own Highest Self , you can't step out of your self neither extinguish it, it can only become covert for short or long time but still temporary time; it is Conscious Living Force of Conscious Energy & Power, that is Eternal. That is within everything even in the smallest atoms and sub particles otherwise nothing can come into formation and hold its formation and exhibit functions and interchange. And so no matter what you do ( yes you have to pay the consequences ) nothing can destroy that; even the worst sins and slanders you do each have their own weight and intensity and duration as a consequence, ultimately you will be free from that, any CRIME, so in everything is the potential and medicine for transformation even in the sinful seeds.
The Lotus sprouts in the mud, it is true. We are depended for our growth from this earth place and its experiences; and so in our early stages of growth and experience we commit many blunders and these are all opportunities and occasions for growth, the good and bad, and the bad is like a manure so to speak; so we may grow gradually stronger to a pure beautiful soul flowers; but there comes a stage that this extreme "duality" pain, suffering, disease, ugliness, any kind of suffering is no longer nessacery for some indeed as a lesson they don't create these conditions for them selves any more; one no more needs to see suffering to appreciate and desire well being, neither sickness to keep one self healthy with good habits appreciating and enjoying a healthy living, neither ugliness to understand and appreciate beauty, neither violence and hate to appreciate peace and love, one then grows and moves no more from suffering and dark ignorance but from light to more light, from truth to more truth , from beauty and love to more beauty and love.
Also you say about two vehicles they never achieve Buddhahood that is not exactly so; it simply states and want to show that those who think they are in possession of truth and thus in their pride and bigotry closed themselves and are not open for greater truth there is no hope or way for them to be saved from their condition while, the ordinary people who are evil are more praise worthy; It simply shows no matter how evil an ordinary person can be he can be saved because he is open and not proud and closed in his little teachings and understandings; and probably like we have seen even in Christ times the learned and Pharisees they were condemned too by Christ that they had no hope because the sinners were saying we are blind and open to the teachings while the learned said we see and there were no hope for them, as long as they are like that there is no hope if they change then yes they can attaint to Buddhahood; no one is condemned eternally we out of our ego or pride and ignorance are condemning our selves.
My criticism was with your interpretesion of Buddhism since I met you , you gave since then few books to resd and I liked them and I told you that many times but when it came to this Knot point there I always disagree and when you told me I don't know the whole of the teachings and that your conclusions were the true teachings which Nichiren expounded then there were times in the past that I did criticised the Nichiren Buddhism and the Teachings of the Lotus sutra but always because of your conclusions. But I always felt that they were your ideas and I am glad I heard the correct teachings which I always felt like that to be true.
HI Katie, If the structure and function of the ordinary person and the Buddha weren't the same the title f Nichirens Gosho "On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime" wouldn't exist
"IF you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, true and correct in both word and principle. Its words are the ultimate reality, and this reality is the Mystic Law (myōhō). It is called the Mystic Law because it reveals the principle of the mutually inclusive relationship of a single moment of life and all phenomena. That is why this sutra is the wisdom of all Buddhas.
Life at each moment encompasses the body and mind and the self and environment of all sentient beings in the Ten Worlds as well as all insentient beings in the three thousand realms, including plants, sky, earth, and even the minutest particles of dust. Life at each moment permeates the entire realm of phenomena and is revealed in all phenomena. To be awakened to this principle is itself the mutually inclusive relationship of life at each moment and all phenomena.
Nevertheless, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but an inferior teaching. “Inferior teaching” means those other than this [Lotus] sutra, which are all expedient and provisional.
No expedient or provisional teaching leads directly to enlightenment, and without the direct path to enlightenment you cannot attain Buddhahood, even if you practice lifetime after lifetime for countless kalpas.
Attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime is then impossible. Therefore, when you chant myōhō and recite renge,1 you must summon up deep faith that Myoho-renge-kyo is your life itself."
I want to thank you Katie again that you stood up for the sake of truth and for the sake of others to do the right thing. I wanted some one else apart from Noel to bravely step in and set the things right.
I don't know Mark why he waited for so long maybe out of the feeling of not wanting to oppose critically one his own Nichiren Buddhist brother practitioner in favour of truth which was held by one not from the Nichiren Buddhsit group.
Anyway I like to thank you both for clearing things up; Mark by bringing so much evidence and you Katie which without you it would not have happened. I am happy and this gives me greater satisfaction then Noel's apology which I don't seek but I do hope that this evidence which was presented and your presence as representative of Nichiren Buddhism may inspire Noel to correct his understanding on this matter which he and his wife Kumiko believe in since the time I have met them at 1999.
"My criticism was with your interpretation of Buddhism" Your criticisms have been about Nichirens teachings ever since I have known you just as they have been recently on this blog.
These are your recent critical conclusions Stavros about Nichirens teachings
"The Great Teacher Miao-lo comments on this as follows: “Enlightenment has no separate entity but completely depends upon ignorance; and ignorance has no separate entity but completely depends upon enlightenment.”
I feel though here is a great insight ( to these teachings you have send ) but as far as the philosophical and intellectual ability of description and expression of these truths they are not as good in conveying that as the western philosophers would have; and that is why the teachings appear hard to understand not because they are so profound but because they are disorderly and messy, badly presented , badly explained , badly expressed without logical clearly intelligible sequence!
"Great Perfection of Wisdom says, “Enlightenment and ignorance are not different things, not separate things. To understand this is what is called the Middle Way.”
This is already explained below that they are different, so the above statement is misleading and erroneous; ( here is another disability of clear intellectual rendering and capacity) the above statement was implied and expressed by the previous ones and that is that they want simply to point that both derive from the one same essence.
I don't denying this, i have spoken and shown to an Indian Dr of phycology and scholar some of these verses and even to a Chinese Buddhist practitioner regarding their presentation; we all agree what they want to convey the non duality and that they come from the same Essential reality and thus great inside but they felt there is, as one of them said "I am also not sure who has translated these sutras. At places it seemed to me that there is a mis-reading due to language barrier." Also to the Chinese person it dint felt accurate translation. Noel I don't know who wrote them and from what languages translated ( whether originally Sanskrit if these are from Lotus Sutra or from Chinese to Japanese and then English ), but they are poorly presented and open to misreading's, From my experience of studying various scriptures and writings west and east they are the most poorly expressed not in a clear philosophical or accurate intellectual sequence, this is mine opinion and feeling and also the feeling and opinion of those with whom i have shared these.
Stav, I am happy that I was able to express my gratitude to you for your passionate and piercing expressions of our most vital struggle as human beings-- to understand the truth about ourselves and each other, and to appreciate that we need each other in our quest for perfect enlightenment.
Here on Eagle Peak transformations are ongoing and thanks to Mark, always based on the teachings of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism. I hope you will visit often :-)
Thank you so much for your very kind words and thoughtful acknowledgement of my efforts. This has been an amazing validation for me of the power and beauty of the heart, which I believe is the core of our humanity.
Thanks all for your admonishment and for those that sat on the side line that didn't speak up who are complicit in slander. This has helped to expiate my negative karma.' I must have admonished others in past lives in the same way that I have been admonished for presenting the true teachings of the Lotus Sutra. So in the Spirit of Bodhisattva Never Disparaging I bow to you all Nam/u Myoho Renge Kyo Farewell
Not so fast.... how can you claim that you have been admonished here for presenting the true teachings of the Lotus Sutra?
The admonishments originate in the writings of Nichiren and you will find myriad examples of the basic one: Not accepting a single verse of any other sutra; not adding to or subtracting from the teaching, the Buddha's golden words-- examples abound in recent postings here on "The Opening of The Eyes". why do you insist unmaking this personal??
Not long ago you commented on a blog here that you believed Nichiren meditated, continuing a practice he had learned as a Tendai priest. So, what do you have to say about this quote?
( "The Doctrine of Three Thousand Realms in a single Moment of Life.")(WND vol. 2 p.83-87)
""If the sutra meant that one could attain Buddhahood through contemplation of the mind alone, then why would it speak of "seeing, hearing, reading, reciting"? This sutra makes "hearing" the sole basis of practice."
"And I, Nichiren, declare that these words, "whether one accepts or rejects," "though one may comply with or go against them," constitute a passage worthy to be engraved on the heart.This is what the Lotus Sutra means when it says, "If there are those who hear the Law[then, not a one will fail to attain Buddhahood]." Here it speaks of those "who hear the Law." but if it were referring to those who attain Buddhahood through meditation, it would say, "If there are those who meditate on the Law."
WHY would Nichiren continue a practice he claims is insufficient, and not in accord with the Lotus Sutra?- Does Nichiren's statement here change your mind?
And still you persist with other *revelations of your own mind*:
NOEL: " What I'm saying is that I don't believe that once we or the historical Shakyamuni Buddha attain Buddhahood that we maintain that state for the all eternity but if that was true that being would be Alien to us being the common mortals that we are. The Buddha and the common mortal would no longer be one"
So, you don't believe:
MARK: "Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”
Correcting misleading or erroneous teachings is practicing as Nichiren taught. Many references from his writings right here for you to review on these topics..
Finding fault with those who believe in the teachings exactly as they are written, is not the way to expiate negative karma!
I have been practicing and studying Nichiren's Lotus sutra Buddhism for 28 years. Reading your comment above and some of the dialogue between you and Noel, I would like to share a perspective on the *means* by which you both are attempting to 1) Explain profound teachings 2) Evaluate their relative meanings,3) Describe their benefit and 4) Judge their merits-- which is superior? The means you are employing is quite limited and fraught with obstacles; two monologues don't make a dialogue. Each of you is describing the teachings that support his core beliefs about life, that create your individual unique philosophy, encompassing creation, purpose, and perpetuation through the lens of an eternally existing, pure and perfect --"something" the we all either possess or can obtain. Because you each have formed some degree of attachment to your core beliefs, you are prone to look for inconsistencies and flaws in each others dissertation, in other words, rather than objectively processing the other's monologue, the content is processed through a filter of confirmation bias. Both of your monologues are interesting & informative , but since two monologues do not make a dialogue, neither of you has expanded your understanding to incorporate what the other has shared. And, as you stated above, conversion was not the result--which I am assuming Noel would have to agree.
I have a suggestion that is not in any way intended to convert either of you to any other religion, spiritual practice or life philosophy. It is only a different means for illustrating the profundity and the perfection of the Lotus Sutra. It is an *exercise*, not a a topic for debate , but the endeavor will naturally you into dialogue.
"A single life moment possesses three thousand realms", is a philosophical system set forth by T'ien-t'ai (538-597) in the Maka Shikan on the basis of the Lotus Sutra,clarifying the mutually inclusive relationship of the ultimate truth and the phenomenal world. T'ien-t'ai lived during the time the Buddha designated as the "Middle Day of The Law", when the wisdom to perceive this *doctrine* was within the capacity of human beings. We are living in the Latter Day of the Law, and according to the Buddha we are deficient in wisdom and cannot directly perceive the function of this doctrine. But, we can study it, and depict it in a manner that demonstrates the scientific logical underpinnings of this philosophical system. ~Katie
To conduct this exercise you will need Nichiren Buddhism reference text, paper and pencil with eraser. The method I will describe for diagramming this doctrine is based on the one I used when studying Traditional Chinese Medicine, which is a holistic approach to our physiology, which for me, required a non-linear and fully integrated mind set that I had to develop.
The diagram will identify the 3,000 realms: The Ten worlds: Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Rapture, Humanity, Learning, Realization, Bodhisattva, Buddhahood. - Write them in a vertical column, with enough space between each one to write the *other nine worlds*. (each world contains the other nine, *mutual possession of the ten worlds*) 10 X 10 = 100 realms
Ten Factors : Appearance, Nature, Entity (life's physical aspect, spiritual aspect and the entity that manifests both); Power, Influene, Internal Cause, relation, Latent effect, Manifest effect (functions of life); Consistency from Beginning to End (integrating factor which unites the previous nine factors). 100 X 10 = 1,000 realms -- Write in linear column - define and describe each factor-
Three Realms of existence: *Individual living being; All other living beings, environment. 3 X 1000 = 3,000 A living being is the temporary union of five components : form, perception, conception, volition, consciousness - Write on far right of paper - describe each of five components.
This diagram is your reference, for the exercise you will need a few more sheets of paper.
Identify an individual living being (doesn't have to be yourself) Create a scenario, situation, event in which the person either initiates an action (cause), or is responding to circumstances (effect)-
Begin using five components- what is perceived through 5 sense organs; what is the concept created, what action is taken, how is the experience understood, what meaning does it have.
Note: consciousness accounts for *individual karma*-- determines which of the 10 worlds is manifest in the scenario.
Note: relationship between 10 factors and the *world* manifest in the experience-
What you can discover within this matrix is an explanation for basic tendencies , patterns of thought and behavior and the complexity of effecting dramatic, lasting change in any component of any of our life functions. Including attaining self perfection...
Using a fine tip colored marker , trace *Buddhahood* as it appears everywhere in the 10 worlds column--
All phenomena contain the True entity=Buddhahood, as the Buddha taught in the Lotus Sutra.
Using the same marker, trace the world & factors identified in the *person* you used for the exercise.
Life changes moment to moment-- the one constant realm is the True entity contained in all aspects of our lives and the environment. -- with the diagram you made, you can illustrate the function of the eternally inherent True Entity when it is activated -- You can also conceptualize what it means to attain the life state of Buddhaood, as well as perfect enlightenment - when one's life is predominantly Buddhaood.
Hi Katie, I wanted to get out of this Blog but was puled but after Noel send me this particular part of this Blog to show the approval and appreciation by others of his comments and supplements of scriptures; but when I saw that headline on top "Many thanks to Noel for his compassionate conversion practice" I was prompted to comment about ( his compassion.. ) about conversion practice or attempt which had the opposite effect to take every sympathy and attraction to the teachings ( of Noel's interpretation anyway which I don't share ).
What you say is partly true that it became kind of monologue although not at the at the beginning, my intention was to harmonize and to find universality through our discussion and still my intention is that; I don't know how much you followed our discussion but during the discussion there was made clear statement by few of the exclusiveness of this path of Nichiren Buddhism as the ONLY truth and the only way to truth to fully enlightenment or Buddhahood.
My intention was to bring together in a more comprehensive way and realization the truth of both or more ways of perception bringing greater awareness not as artificially synthesising something but putting things in the right perspective and order. But when we hit a "knot" I insisted to untie it or go through it by resolving it not avoiding it but dealing with it; and thus this persistence on both sides his to defend his stand mine to insist on Noel to see and face in the eyes what he don't send me as proof or what he has send me and what one of his Essential teachings says, to face and to answer; at first there were brought in other statements not directly answering that and finally at the end it came an answer that all these I am talking about are and belong to earlier provisional teachings prior to The Lotus Sutra.
But in my last mail briefly I opposed this answer of saying they are provisional teachings, that is simply not so, the description which you can see above about the Buddhahood world and as you already know it is a major essential declaration of what the state of Buddhahood is; and this is part of the whole Gohonzon a great part the most essential and fundamental; to try such a authoritative declaration to place it as not fully valid or not fully true and placing it to provisional teachings is not right. This is the Highest ideal placed before humanity a total perfection of freedom and absolute happiness which should we bow to it in reverence for such a beautiful prospect and fulfilment that is awaiting us now or soon or little later for us to realize and manifest. Such an important truth to be overlooked or belittled or minimized or doubted ( yes one may at the present condition and state of consciousness have some doubt about such a possibility ) but the Truly wise ones don't give false promises but speak from their own attainment and experience of realization. who are we to deform it and bring it down such a high ideal as impossibility without having the experience ourselves and simply from our own present consciousness of duality and little light or half light make such a conclusions..? Do you accept the statement about the world of Buddhahood literally as absolutely true?
You know, I have made long time ago some diagrams ( I shared some of them with my friend Noel as well ) I am aware of what you are saying of the teachings as a whole with their order and interconnectedness and influence . I am aware of them everyday; these are part of my contemplation or rather the Self or the state of Buddhahood or Divine Spirit is my aspiration while being aware of the qualities and nature of different states of consciousness. I don't know how much you are also knowledgeable of other religious paths or spiritual practices but they too more all less have description of different mental states and worlds not only as our own states of consciousness but worlds predominantly embodying these deferent states of consciousness's. What you say I feel it and also the teachings mainly I follow of Vedanta ( by the way there are many schools of Vedanta which emphasise different aspects some are more dualistic others are qualified dualities meaning one in essential quality different in quantity, while others more or exclusively with monistic view accepting absolute equality and oneness with apparent or illusory difference and distinction ). What I follow and have faith in is the Purna Yoga meaning Full yoga or complete yoga or The Yoga of Perfection or Total Transformation; many use the word yoga loosely but yoga really means in Sanskrit to yoke to tie to ling the soul with spirit, the individual with the universal and absolute or to unite body mind and soul and spirit. Also in the west we use the word religion from Latin "religare" which means to bind or join together same like yoga; so our purpose of life is to unite with God and His/Her or Thus That's Will, the universal Law the will of God. As you say the True Entity or Reality is present everywhere in all through all everyone and everything; all have That True Nature and not only that I may add the True Reality it also envelops and transcends all formations as well as permeates them. I am making comparative statements of the Brahman ( not some god brahman or brahnmanas priests) that is what is called in Indian or Sanskrit for the Fundamental Reality or The Ground Of Eternal Being. I don't know how much you know apart from Buddhism about the teachings of Vedanta but that is why I am explaining these things so we may compare the similarities and the truth which they share; and connect more in consciousness in our discussion.
What you say about the "10" worlds , according to Vedanta there are "14" worlds adding more of the lower ones and adding other higher ones of art and creativity and science as parts or states of consciousness. They are there latent in the consciousness but also there as external influences and also subtle influences not only from our outer environment but also from other planes of other dimensions. As you mention they appear in different scenarios and here is where the practice comes in being mindful of what takes place, what goes though ones consciousness , what should one reject what should one change, what should one accept or just simply watch without grasping and attachment.
About the factors, I have found this article http://www.sgi.org/about-us/buddhism-in-daily-life/ten-factors.html I will go through it tomorrow more closely than I can discuss on this with you. Also about the last part you send me I like to discuss with you about it as well. Its getting bit late. Any question or comment feel free to express. Goodnight Stav x
Hello Katie, thank you for the imput and the suggestion; when i finish work i will look into it " though i have many times thought and looked into this formulation of teachings ) and i will reply to you. Stav x
Thank you for clarifying your points of contention and sharing your knowledge from your own religious path and spiritual practice. I appreciate your generosity as I my own knowledge of other religions and spiritual practices is quite limited. That said, what I have to offer is relevance of my study of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra Buddhism, that has grounded my experience from 28 years of practice. I am a nurse with a science oriented, evidence based mind set,that reflects my basic inquisitive nature. After 14 years of practicing in the medical field, I was losing my faith in science-- my spiritual path was the inevitable result of dissatisfaction with the knowledge base. I was never satisfied with explanations for exceptions to the rule, and needless to say I could not suspend reality to embrace any of the major world *monotheistic* religions. I deeply appreciate learning about others' experiences and practices, actually preferring the life to life teaching over formal study.
"Do you accept the statement about the world of Buddhahood literally as absolutely true?
A difficult question to answer, because my understanding of Buddhahood is based on my practice, chanting Namu myoho renge kyo and the writings of Nichiren Daishonin. There is no single statement about the world of Buddhahood that captures my belief in it, but I do believe this formula: Namu myoho renge kyo = the True Entity = The Eternal Buddha = the world of Buddhahood inherent in all life phenomena.
The most direct means for testing the validity of this formula is to chant the daimoku (NMRK) with awareness of my present life state, the world that is predominantly functioning. It is then, that the experience of transformation can be appreciated, and proof that Buddhahood is indeed inherent in each of the other nine worlds. Buddhaood in the world of anger, for example, becomes determination to act with compassion for the sake of others, as opposed to defense of one's own *small ego*. It has become apparent to me, after 28 years conducting this experiment, that the process of inner transformation toward self perfection, is a matter of evoking and acting on the True Reality and the Mystic Law (NMRK)is our immediate access to it.
Not to leave off the crucial matter of the attainment of Buddhahood- or the crux of your question, stay, I believe regarding the ultimate purpose for following Nichiren, and embracing the practice of the Lotus Sutra that he taught, that Buddhahood is a dynamic, not static life state, and it is the ultimate perfect enlightenment and pure state of existence.
Pre- Lotus Sutra teachings identified the world the Buddhahood, but the Buddha taught that it was not possible for ALL to attain this ultimate awakening and pure state of existence. The Lotus Sutra teaching of the mutual inclusive 10 worlds changed that --opening The Way for All-- by extension, the 3,000 realms in a single life moment, also ONLY taught in the Lotus Sutra, further illuminates the truth that indeed, ALL possess the potential that is inherent eternally in ALL life, and this is just the basic "difficult to believe and difficult to understand" teaching that is only in The Eternal Buddha's highest teaching, the Lotus Sutra.
Rather than having a concept in mind of what the ultimate attainment IS in actuality, I practice to reveal the True Reality moment to moment, thus deepending my faith in the teaching, the one and only teaching preached by Shakyamuni Buddha that predicts Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime.
From my own understanding, there is no regression from the attainment of Buddhahood-- only more unimaginable possibilities for unlimited potential to use this highest state of life, in this world and beyond.
"This is similar to a tarnished mirror that will shine like a jewel when polished. A mind now clouded by the illusions of the innate darkness of life is like a tarnished mirror, but when polished, it is sure to become like a clear mirror, reflecting the essential nature of phenomena and the true aspect of reality. Arouse deep faith, and diligently polish your mirror day and night. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo."
It is the same with a Buddha and an ordinary being.
When deluded, one is called an ordinary being, but when enlightened, one is called a Buddha.
The structure of life and the potential functions are exactly the same between Buddha and common mortal
WE do not change our original structure when we become a Buddha and loosing our functions and becoming an Alien Entity this idea is insanity
Buddha's control their negative functions and activates their positive ones where the common mortal has less control over their negative functions and their positive functions are much less than a Buddha
"Whether you chant the Buddha’s name,3 recite the sutra, or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits and roots of goodness in your life. With this conviction you should strive in faith. The Vimalakīrti Sutra states that, when one seeks the Buddhas’ emancipation in the minds of ordinary beings, one finds that ordinary beings are the entities of enlightenment, and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. It also states that, if the minds of living beings are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds."
(The structure of life and the potential functions are exactly the same as between two lands, pure or impure)
Mystic means to realise this truth that is simply the mysterious nature of our life from moment to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend or words express. When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither colour nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur.
The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both.
It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality. Myō is the name given to the mystic nature of life, and hō, to its manifestations. Renge, which means lotus flower, is used to symbolize the wonder of this Law. If we understand that our life at this moment is myō, then we will also understand that our life at other moments is the Mystic Law.4
This realization is the mystic kyō, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our life, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law."
Only people who take faith in this ultimate truth 'On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime' can attain Buddhahood in this life time. This is the core teaching of ichinen sanzen if you aren't open to this through faith you will miss out
Nichiren Buddhism is so unique it is OK to say its not Buddhism but because not ordinary Buddhism
This realization is the mystic kyō, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our life, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law."
What is this entity Noel? and also is this entity good or evil?
Noel, I believe this Gosho you have chosen, "On Ataining Buddhaood" is one of the disputed writings of Nichiren, in terms of authenticity.
In any case, I think your conclusion here is a bit off--
"Only people who take faith in this ultimate truth 'On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime' can attain Buddhahood in this life time. This is the core teaching of ichinen sanzen if you aren't open to this through faith you will miss out"
The Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren's writings based on it do not make such pronouncements. And i would also point out that there are other Gosho that contain more substantive teachings on ichinen sanzen....
Hi boys and girls. I would have to agree, there is nothing alien about attaining Buddhahood in one's present form, only that it is the most difficult principle to believe and understand.
Regarding the Gosho On Attaining Buddhaahood In Thiis Very Body, i believe is a genuine Gosho but it should be pointed out that it falls in the category of "early writing" where Nichiren had not completely shed the remnants of his training in Tendai original enlightenment thought.
"I would have to agree, there is nothing alien about attaining Buddhahood in one's present form, only that it is the most difficult principle to believe and understand."
I'm not saying that we cant attaining Buddhahood in one's present form. What I'm saying is that I don't believe that once we or the historical Shakyamuni Buddha attain Buddhahood that we maintain that state for the all eternity but if that was true that being would be Alien to us being the common mortals that we are. The Buddha and the common mortal would no longer be one
You seem to have all the answers why are you asking me. Why don't you tell us since you now know so much about Nichiren Buddhism's teachings. Do some research and see what you can come up with based on what Nichiren says. Thanks
Because you are presenting from scriptures these verses to prove you position of you believes but I feel they are different from those verses, that is why I asked for your explanation of this verse.
There is a wonderful teaching that describes the "entity of our life", "The Entity of the Mystic Law", by Nichiren Daishonin. I will share a few key passages here.
" The mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure spect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion, If the pure aspect is operative , this is called enlightenment. enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realm of ordinary mortals ."
"These two aspects, the deluded and the enlightened, are indeed two different phenomena, and yet both are workings of the one principle, that is, the essential nature of phenomena, or true aspect of reality. It is like a piece of crystal, If the crystal is paced in the sun's rays, it will attract them and produce fire. But if the crystal is placed in the moon's rays, it will produce water. The crystal is a single entity, but the effects it produces differs according to circumstances. "
"The Buddha who is the entity of Myoho-renge-kyo of the "Life Span" chapter of the essential teachings, who is inhabiting subject and inhabited realm, life and environment, body and mind, entity and function, the Buddha internally endowed with the three bodies, he is to be found in the disciples and lay believers of Nichiren. Such persons embody the true entity of Myoho-renge-kyo, this is all due to meritorious workings that the spontaneous transcendental powers inherent in it display. Could anyone venture to doubt it? Indeed it cannot be doubted!"
Believing in the Lotus Sutra, reciting it, upholding it, propagating it and defending/protecting it, are the *good circumstances* that cause every aspect of our lives to manifest and exhibit the enlightened aspect of the true entity.
Based on Noel's own statements here and his off-putting attitude toward questions you raise, it seems that Noel does not *believe* this teaching. The defiled aspect of the true entity is operative when one disbelieves, or slanders the Lotus sutra. ~Karie cont'd
Katie You are very quick to criticise without knowledge about things you know little of and to think the worst of the person that your are emotionally against and that threatens your sense of self that is your small ego that is deluded about the nature of who or what we are.
Which is open to you for discussion with Stavros
You are making out that I don't understand that we are an eternally changing consciousness and at the same time an eternally unchanging consciousness but rather something fixed
Our Entity has a structure and potential with its aspects that are eternally changing and at the same time is eternally never changing - it paradoxical.
Stavros and I have different views of the nature of entity - structure and potential with its aspects or whatever he would prefer to call it but is about correctly identifying the nature of self and purpose of existence.
So can you answer his questions in a polite cordial fashion in calm unemotional way unlike how you have turned on me and others in this blog on many occasions when ever you get a bee under your bonnet
I cant help feeling hurt by someone who is supposed to share the same faith. You are always see the worst scenario and take the wrong way in all that I say
Noel, I am responding to what have written here-- to me and to Stav. I am overlooking the hurtful and disrespectful things you have said, focusing on the crux of the matter, which I believe to be responding with respect and thoughtfulness to someone who is seeking the teachings of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism.
With all due respects for your own path and the differing views you share here, when it comes to sharing *the teachings* with someone who has not yet taken faith , I will follow Nichiren's example. My life is insignificant, the Law is supreme.
I can't help feeling dismayed that I would be labeled and disparaged HERE for propagating the teachings of Nichiren.
I have voiced disagreement here, but I don't *turn on anyone*- that is not my nature.
I respect the courage it took to publish your debate with Stav-- and wonder why you would not expect obstacles/devilsh functions from a cause of this magnitude? And I don't mean external influences, s your obstacles, Noel-- I mean kicking up the negative karma you can change with this practice. This is your opportunity- don't blow it ...
Noel-- I mean kicking up the negative karma you can change with this practice. This is your opportunity- don't blow it"
The same goes for you Katie, I know its not easy at times
"I can't help feeling dismayed that I would be labelled and disparaged HERE for propagating the teachings of Nichiren."
Sometimes you present the teachings with clarity and at other times you are way out of line(enlightened and deluded aspect) as I see it, and that you may agree or disagree with - your choice. We all have different capacities in understanding of the Lotus Sutra and Gosho.
One of the worst things is if we are slandering a correct teaching that we don't understand because of our arrogance of wanting to play teacher and having to be right all the time and telling others what they should do
We can see ourselves through the eyes of others and what I have written to you, Stavros or anyone else is as I see it.
We all have our views of Nichiren and others that we agree and disagree on but I wont be smothered by your comments without a reply even though this becomes tiring and at times and I cant be bothered. Sooner or latter I'll be gone just like Mark who may not have too much longer to live. In the mean time my wife and I pray for his health and well being and that he has many years ahead to flourish as he has been a good friend to me and many others over the years
Lest we forget why we are here. Mark is our host and we are his guests lets show him respect by showing one another respect. The same as Shakyamuni and Nichiren would show one another respect
Stavros and I go back a long way nearly 20 years, you shouldn't be so freaked out that I told him to do some homework to see what he could find out about his question before I gave him the answer, it was an expedient means and I knew you would jump in.
But you don't need to act like such a Martyr and put me down as you are in the habit of doing. Just chill out before you jump on your high horses and perhaps have some common courtesy that you are short of at times and find out about what's going by asking me, before start accusing me.
I've been over what you are telling him and given him tons and tons of literature through Email and some books and plenty of talks on Nichiren Buddhism, so take this opportunity to learn about Vedanta because he would have to be one of the most knowledgeable people that you will probably ever meet in his field who would spend time sharing with Nichiren Buddhists
Noel lets now focus on the teachings only we are all on the journey so lets clear things up and lest see things honestly and accurately here; I am not claiming to be knowledgeable but whatever I know I will share and if in this discussions differences will come which is natural to come we can harmonize them and enlarge all of us from these discussions our consciousness, we all will benefit.
But Noel the truth here is I am interested to hear about the teachings from another member of Nichiren apart from you on these teachings and hear the replies. What I disagree with you we already know but through this discussion I feel we can harmonize the different points and issues raised.
I understand from where you and Katie are coming. I am not an arbitrator but context is always important. In one sense, a twenty year relationship with a votary of the Sutra, criticizing the behavior and words of said votary must be taken with utmost self reflection. In the other sense, Noel has unsuccessfully converted his friend Stav, so some suggestions for realizing the goal should be welcome.
My thoughts on where Noel is coming from- presented as direct quotes from this thread.
Noel: "Ask for Marks opinoin on this matter. I would like to hear his opinion on whether it is possible to regress once we attain buddhahood and i dont mean in the temporary sence as in the mutual possession of the ten worlds in eternal moment"
Mark: "I believe that since even Bodhisattvas can reach the stage of non-retrogression, Buddhas do not retrogress." (conclusion at the end of scriptural references presented by Mark.)
Noel: "I noticed in the quotes it never said 'Never Retrogress. This your opinion and others that share same capacity as yourself, so in this case Katie's statement applies to the whole lot of you.... You are all guilty as hell for own arbitrary opinions that you accuse me of. Wake up and have a good look at yourselves "
Noel: "Lest we forget why we are here. Mark is our host and we are his guests lets show him respect by showing one another respect. The same as Shakyamuni and Nichiren would show one another respect."
Now, Noel is fawning...
The above, denotes, imho , Noel's disbelief in True teachings presented-- EVEN by the host of the blog that he admonishes ME to RESPECT. Noel's disbelief , which is slander itself, then gives rise to finding fault with the practitioners who present documentary proof of the teaching that Noel does not *believe*. It is correct practice of the Buddha's mercy to CORRECT Noel. Is it not??
And to his longtime friend who has participated here in quest of understanding teachings shared by Noel, that he, Stav, has not been satisfied with--
Stav: "Because you are presenting from scriptures these verses to prove you position of you believes but I feel they are different from those verses, that is why I asked for your explanation of this verse. "
Noel: "You prove to me why you feel I have been misrepresenting Nichiren's teachings based on what Nichiren says.
I know the answer but I will not reveal it to you unless you do your homework and prove to me that you are sincere"**
** ?? Are there not sufficient references in Nichiren's writings that demonstrate correct behavior when sharing the teachings of the Lotus Sutra??
But worse:
NOEL: to longtime friend, seeking clarification of Nichiren's teachings : "You are a MENTAL CASE who clings to Hinayana provisional Mahayana teachings and Vedanta teachings,.." AND: " This is what Nichiren says about the likes of you who are full of hatred towards the Lotus Sutra. The words you have written prove your scornful declaration of Nichiren Buddhism which has sealed your fate according to the scriptures unless you repent ."
DO we just need to change the title of the blog post?? Or are we to believe that we owe a debt of gratitude for reading about Noel's "Compassionate Conversion Practice" ???
Mark says : "In one sense, a twenty year relationship with a votary of the Sutra, criticizing the behavior and words of said votary must be taken with the utmost self reflection."
I agree!! My argument, however, is based solely on Noel's own behavior and words that are not indicative of *a votary of the Lotus Sutra* He states his disbelief in Gosho quotes and sutra passages based on *his thoughts* - insisting there are *deeper meanings* and those who question him are *deficient in numerous ways* i.e.: "Katie You are very quick to criticise without knowledge about things you know little of and to think the worst of the person that your are emotionally against and that threatens your sense of self that is your small ego that is deluded about the nature of who or what we are. "
Nichiren states :"I, Nichiren, am not condemning others, I am merely pointing out the questionable places in their doctrines. If they want to get angry with at me, then let them!" (Letter To Shomitsu Bo)
"These people failing to recognize their own rudeness seem to think that i am rude." ( Reply to Yasaburo)
"When in public debate, although the teachings you advocate are perfectly consistent with the truth, you should NEVER on that account be impolite or abusive, or display a conceited attitude. Such conduct would be disgraceful." (The Teaching, Practice And Proof)
If I am in error refuting Noel's *teachings* and admonishing him for his behavior in this *public debate* forum, I sincerely hope, this will be pointed out to me, so that I may correct my error.
Hi Katie, the "very well said was for the verses you quoted by Nichiren about proper behaviour, I replied under your message but after appeared under Noel's message, which was the vey opposite. Stav x
We all have to contend with our doubts. Believing in the Lotus sutra and Nichiren's teachings- EXACTLY as they are written, is a very personal endeavor and often times an intense struggle. I wage my struggles chanting Namu myoho renge kyo to my Gohonzon. I find that waging arguments against the teaching with the person who has shared the Gosho quote or a passage of the Lotus Sutra, based on my having difficulty understanding or believing it, is counter productive. I must arouse faith, believing that THIS is the portal to the Buddha's wisdom. Stav, I believe you have stated your belief regarding embracing the True Buddha's teaching here in one of your comments. I agree that we must approach the teachings with faith, accepting exactly what the Buddha taught.
When Noel says: "WE do not change our original structure when we become a Buddha and loosing our functions and becoming an Alien Entity this idea is insanity." He is showing both lack of understanding and disbelief of the teaching itself. There is no *fixed structure or function* . According to the Buddha, we are a temporary union of five components. The 10 factors , which describe life's physical , mental and spiritual functions. possess the true entity- and all are transformed, reflecting the enlightened aspect of the true entity when we believe in the Lotus Sutra and practice chanting the daimoku. Likewise, there is no fixed *self*, all life phenomena is in a constant state of flux. Our entire being is changed, transformed when we attain Buddhahood-- and the enlightened aspect of all of our life's functions and our environment manifest and exhibit their enlightened aspect. WE do not become an *alien entity*, as Noel points out, though the prospect of attaining Buddhahood may seem alien to some,-- even those who are chanting the daimoku of the Lotus Sutra,if they do not believe in or have pure faith in the Lotus Sutra, will harbor mistaken beliefs, like this.
To illustrate further, another statement Noel write (above), "Buddha's control their negative functions and activates their positive ones where the common mortal has less control over their negative functions and their positive functions are much less than a Buddha "
In this statement, Noel is describing *control* as a force of will, which is not the means by which we cause the enlightened aspect of our lives to become manifest. Again, Noel is implying a *self* that is constant and unchanging, maybe due to his attachment to the *small ego* ? This is the delusional thinking produced when the defiled aspect of the true entity of our minds is operative,
I am sorry for the way you are being addressed by Noel, and that he does not seem to appreciate all that you are teaching him-- at least, not yet. In any case, I certainly hope you are not submitting to this: "I know the answer but I will not reveal it to you unless you do your homework and prove to me that you are sincere"
If you are, maybe I have assisted in answering the question he assigned for your homework, re: how Noel has misrepresented the teachings of Nichiren. I
Compassionate Conversion Practice??
I am astounded that you have remained engaged in this discussion with Noel, and very grateful that you have maintained a seeking mind toward the "teachings" he has shared.
As you said above nothing is fixed and we become definitely not an alien entity but I True entity and everything is transformed to that truth, and it will keep transforming to greater and greater perfection.
I don't want to react with emotions I like through reason and calm intelligence and consciousness to let the truth shine through all this, put the things on the table so to speak in a kind of scientific approach and for the love of truth; and I know also what is Noels confusion about the enlighten and deluded aspect which are part of the universe and Noel thinks to be complete he has to be both and have both at the same time or alternatively; if some things first will be cleared through our discussions I would like to share some information about this issue which is metaphysical issue from the Vedanta perspective about the Cosmology and the Ontology of being and its eternity.
"Noels confusion about the enlighten and deluded aspect which are part of the universe and Noel thinks to be complete he has to be both and have both at the same time or alternatively;"
I don't feel any confusion over the enlightened and deluded aspect but rather a crystal clear clarity that carries peace that surpasses all understanding.
The confusion that you cast on me is your projection that is coming from your perception that is coloured by the view that you see through
I believe that the mystic entity of the Middle Way is the ultimate reality
Entity = structure + function + aspects
Both the enlightened and deluded aspect exist at the same time in either a manifest or latent state
"What then does myō signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our life from moment to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend or words express.
When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither colour nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur.
The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality.'
Hi Noel You don't feel peace neither speak in peace; and what you say about Katie look at your self as well if you feel offended then you too don't offend; It shows weakness from you the aggressive behaviour so lets continue instead in a more intelligent and mature way.
Lets put things in order here it will help us to build up concentrated energy and connection of our mind and then will start moving constructively forward with this conversation.
Ok Noel you speak about the entity but here the entity is not the True nature of mind but rather a function or the true nature with structures, function and different aspects together.
When you speak next " When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither colour nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur. "
The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality.'
This is the true nature of reality or the "crystal" example what Nichiren speaks of and not the entity which was described above.
This below again is not the entity which Katie and you send me in verse before which indicated the entity as all things; this verse of entity below is directed to the true nature of mind or Amala, right.?
This realization is the mystic kyō, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our life, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law."
I would like to ask something here who is making this translations? are these directly translation from Lotus sutra from Japanese to English? ( as far as I know there not available the original in Sanskrit verses of Lotus sutra, only the Chinese version) no offence but just I feel there are same words interplayed differently for different things and that makes it little bit unclear but if one looks at them carefully one may put things in proper order what is said and meant with that word in what context and what it indicates; So I think this is very important to be made clear because creates misunderstanding that's the reason why I asked both of you before, so we can communicate with clear mind about the teachings.
Hi Stavros, I think that the Amala, as is the mind and everything else are functional aspects parts of the structure that are but a conglomerates of our Entity . Hey but this is probably just my arbitrary opinion compared to the golden words of the Buddha and Nichiren that Mark, Katie, Shinkei, Mudpie Boy and Greg may be able to explain.
"Noel the truth here is I am interested to hear about the teachings from another member of Nichiren apart from you on these teachings and hear the replies."
So am I
"What I disagree with you we already know but through this discussion I feel we can harmonize the different points and issues raised."
I somehow don't think that will be easy but I admire you courage compassion resilience and noble intentions even though the differences may be insoluble
"I would like to ask something here who is making this translations? are these directly translation from Lotus sutra from Japanese to English? ( as far as I know there not available the original in Sanskrit verses of Lotus sutra, only the Chinese version) no offence but just I feel there are same words interplayed differently for different things and that makes it little bit unclear but if one looks at them carefully one may put things in proper order what is said and meant with that word in what context and what it indicates; So I think this is very important to be made clear because creates misunderstanding that's the reason why I asked both of you before, so we can communicate with clear mind about the teachings"
Who really knows who said what and when Stavros, it all depends on who we put our trust in and what makes sense to us at the time according to our capacity. They are all story's after all that have been made up by someone.
I have been using the SGI library which I consider as their most redeeming character.
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/
Their literature is based on Nichiren Shoshu sect that have different interpretation to the Nichiren Shu sect who use goshos that they say are more authentic and also that the Nichiren Lotus sect that Mark is member or maybe the leader of agrees with
Hi Noel lets get to business there is nothing to be gained with insults only bitter heart and bad memories Maybe it is a time for me to share the vedantic percpective on those issues which we have discussed and maybe you and any one on this blog would like to comment or see how this fits of have any similarities with Nichiren Buddhism.
Part of it i wrote some time ago but i though to send it now: I know where is the problem you are facing you are thinking when i say "fresh new individuals" how can they arise without previous cause , how can they be disconnected from the rest of the whole universal mind and its memory Alaya; if you take it that the Buddha after realizing his true nature and left his teachings how can one also access his true being and free him self by realizing his true nature and then through that experience entering into the widest consciousness free from the limitation of the body or other subtle bodies and then just becoming and abiding in that Original ground of Being Vastness then from That Place from That Existence plunging and becoming a microbe or whatever simple organism then like that i do agree that the True Original Buddha The Ground Of Being enters intentionally a portion of its Vastness becomes covered and limited and involved again!
When i say fresh new it is in the sense of a new enclosure with a Buddha spark formless spark containing in itself all the infinity and eternity and all the potentials and possibilities and thus in that sense it is never new in its essence but new in its "coming into a new enclosure" or formation from the most subtle formation to the most dense.
There are many planes prior to the physical universe; according to Vedanta there are very partial annihilations on the surface of the earth, then more greater but still partial annihilation's of the earth itself and the lower subtle physical and vital-mental planes; while the other planes with their worlds of the higher mental and pure mental-spiritual they still exist until the greatest annihilation takes place and then those too are temporary dissolved; Now there are planes higher even then those and these are stated by the scriptures and the sages that they are eternally manifested without total annihilation; they are perfect formations of truth, of beauty, of power, of wisdom that is why they cannot be ( and they no need to be) destroyed but they are not static and monotonous there (destruction) or change is constant through different perfect varieties of expression and experience without the need to change their bodies or world with radical destroying of total "death" of total disintegration but changes with and through the selfsame bodies into eternity.
So when the Mahapralaya or the Great dissolution takes place and all the worlds the imperfect and the nearly perfect after their dissolution and rest they will appear in the same order as they disappeared, with the physical first to go and last to manifest ( simple example but just like when one falls into sleep slowly dissociated with the physical then with the vital-mental or astral of dreams and falls into deep sleep while the deepest Consciousness is still there at the background so will wake up gradually from dreamless to dreaming and then into physical consciousness. ) it will slowly gradually appear with the highest planes manifesting first then the intermediary and then the physicals elements and planets.
The beings for example of the astral world its residents from previous cycle of manifestation will have to be dormant and wait for the appearance and creation of astral planes and then they will enter and manifest there, similarly the physical beings till the physical universe is ready made to sustain life will manifest there, first the beings from the lower species and the human will be waiting in its astral-causal dormant bodies till the life is ready after the land mammals to appear on earth. The more evolved humans may choose consciously when to take birth, so the human Buddhas and other enlighten t beings may remain in the high planes or the highest and not go through dissolution and latent state but be fully conscious in the higher spheres till the earth and all is ready for their coming.
Now you still may think how new individuality may arise without previous connection and continuation of the rest; but there is always continuation and connection since the fully awakened soul when free from limitation and is situated in ones true consciousness have awakened or is aware of the whole universal consciousness and i dont mean only the physical universe ( since there are many grades and layers and dimensions, from subtle physical, vital, vital-mental, pure mental, mental - spiritual, pure spiritual etc till the Ultimate transcendent and all in that Ultimate Being ) and thus what is needed it chooses to manifests; apart from the subconscious planes of Alaya or storage consciousness which each plane has its own there is a causal mind which contains all the ideas and possibilities to manifest not just memories of past stored actions but fresh ideas of course always in some relation to the rest of the universe; thus nothing is really disconnected or coming out of the blue without any relation the liberated reaching a stage of maturity several option are open to it depends of its line of progress and realization different possibilities presenting themselves at the same time for developed souls such as, - merger back, lingering for eternity enjoying the difference of unity, returning as a Master who can help, engaging with creation as a realized being, participating in the new adventure of transformation into eternity without individual end etc etc. There are many possibilities of states of being after liberation and awakening of ones true nature in which one can be a passive center feeling the whole universe as ones body, or a universal Consciousness through any particular center active center but through all the centers or beyond the whole manifestation experiencing Absolute nakedness of Spirit . all these states in themselves may not final; or it may keep all his adventure as a memory of enlighten completion of that series from the first evolved spark to a great spiritual personality ( but that created long journeyed evolved personality won't be devolved again ) but be a new emanation as a formless conscious spark into its first formation of causal body or idea body ( all entities of all dimensions are clothed first in an idea or causal body before entering the astral forms, similarly all physical bodies have causal as foundation and astral form before entering a physical bodies; and as stated before they exist prior and outlast the physical formations) in repeated cycles.
This is just a very brief description one can also look into the Vedic cycles of creations. Buddhas roots are in the Vedic cultute and thus the universe too with apsaras , gandarvas , raksasa, yaksas and the Gods and the lesser god's are also there in the Buddhist Sutras'
So In Nichiren Buddhism from what i see there the entity in general is everything, the amala , the rest of the 8 consciousness & 5 skandas the environment, activities, qualities and all the rest through all the universe; this too in Vedanta would be described everything is God or the Divine since everything ultimately come from the Divine the lower nature the Higher nature and all in between. But also you have the expression the True Entity which is specifically the True nature of mind , like you mention Noel it has no form, no quality, no color etc..in its fundamental essence Reality; that would be the Spirit or the Atma or the Ground of being or Amala Eternally unchanging pure Substance and Essence.
That is briefly True Entity is the Amala or Spirit or if described in the sense also as manifested being and not just fundamental essence of being also as True Entity; in Vedanta or particularly in my line which i follow the Divine being or Divine nature in contrast with the lower nature which is part of the Divine but is not the True Divine in nature of true or enlighten manifestation.
That is why there has to be made distinction between the True nature and the lower shadow ignorant nature; as your scripture says delusion and enlightenment are two different things although both come from the same source ultimately but they are very different in manifestation. That why in Veda it is said the apara prakriti and the para paikriti , the lower nature and the higher nature; in Buddhism the 6 worlds belong to this lower nature and then begins the higher realm and the Highest; so here we are to manifest the higher nature the true nature which is in oneness and unity with the True Entity; if one has not finished with lower nature completely one has to be in this samsara of the lower 6 worlds as a ignorant are half enlighten being; when one is free completely from the lower nature there is no more falling back. and there are the possibilities and options available for one as stated above.
Now you may ask who or what will become these lower forms of life and the rest if the individuals can continue eternally manifesting greater and greater potentials; there is no fix amount of individuals neither fixed amount of energy of circulation; there is a new input and influx of beings and energies it is eternally growing just like our experiences of our mind and consciousness are ever increasing. Our fundamental nature is the same in everyone so That will manifest more beings and energy and nature for That is not only confined in bodies or formations only but exceeds and transcends all formations as well as envelops , permeates and contains all and everything ; but what you perceive as you now this individual limited being ones freed from the lower nature cannot comes back again on that level of experience as to experience it again but may come as stated above for higher reasons! So fundamentally speaking That True Entity and True Nature of Being will manifest all the different planes and levels of Consciousness through gradual or successive unfoldment again and again in different ways but that is not you , me or I; thats why the seers or Buddhas they dont say true I or real Me because the moment you say that there is a smell and shadow of ego that is why they say That or the Suchness because from the experience it is felt like that as That and in that experience as Sri Aurobindo also stated as well no pure i neither any idea of true self was felt there were no thoughts at all in that Ground of being state only the awareness of That and he ( said although he didnt think it at that time since it was completely beyond any concept of mental mind) was simply That and he was That and That was the only awareness aware of That ( and of course of all the formations but with different significance as seen from ordinary mind ).
So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate You so to speak than yes it is You who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation.
This is very brief but the idea of all these we were disusing is there.
Also i like to say that the vedas see and speak of other dimensions and other beings who are local and native of those planes in contrast with the humans from the physical universe who are evolutionary beings from species to species of forms and consciousness ( evolving through different forms of species the innate inherent Buddhahood ) to the highest of human form and being who can practice consciously the Dharma and this form is the door to Buddhahood and Divine life.
I am writing this from my work and reading the mail i wrote i have some spelling mistakes as well some words not very well connected but the substance of the subject which i wanted to share more or less is there.
"So fundamentally speaking That True Entity and True Nature of Being will manifest all the different planes and levels of Consciousness through gradual or successive unfoldment again and again in different ways but that is not you , me or I; thats why the seers or Buddhas they dont say true I or real Me because the moment you say that there is a smell and shadow of ego that is why they say That or the Suchness because from the experience it is felt like that as That and in that experience as Sri Aurobindo also stated as well no pure i neither any idea of true self was felt there were no thoughts at all in that Ground of being state only the awareness of That and he ( said although he didnt think it at that time since it was completely beyond any concept of mental mind) was simply That and he was That and That was the only awareness aware of That ( and of course of all the formations but with different significance as seen from ordinary mind )." -- Stav Hatz
"Because venison is tasty, the deer is hunted and killed; because oil can be obtained from the turtle, the turtle loses its life. If a woman is beautiful, there will be many who envy her. The ruler of a nation has much to fear from other nations, and the life of a man with great wealth is constantly in danger. One who abides by the Lotus Sutra will inevitably attain Buddhahood. Therefore, the devil king of the sixth heaven, the lord of this threefold world, will become intensely jealous of anyone who abides by the sutra. This devil king, we are told, attaches himself like a plague demon to people in a way that cannot be detected by the eye. Thereafter, like persons who gradually become drunk on fine old wine, rulers, fathers and mothers, wives and children gradually become possessed by him and are filled with jealousy toward the votary of the Lotus Sutra. And that is precisely the situation we face today in the world around us. Because I chant Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, I have for over twenty years been driven from place to place. Twice I have incurred the wrath of the authorities, and in the end I have retired to this mountain.
Here I am surrounded by four mountains, Shichimen to the west, Tenshi to the east, Minobu to the north, and Takatori to the south. Each is high enough to touch the sky, and so steep that even flying birds have trouble crossing them. In their midst are four rivers called Fuji, Haya, Oshira, and Minobu. In the middle, in a ravine some hundred yards or so across, I have built my hut. I cannot see the sun in the daytime or the moon at night. In winter there is deep snow, and in summer the grass grows thick. Because so few people come to see me, the trail is very hard to travel. This year, especially, the snow is so deep that I have no visitors at all. Knowing that my life may end at any time, I put all my trust in the Lotus Sutra. In these circumstances, your letter was particularly welcome. It seemed almost like a message from Shakyamuni Buddha or from my departed parents, and I cannot tell you how grateful I was. Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, Namu-myoho-renge-kyo."
Overcoming hardships is a major theme in Buddhism. How can one explain the process of overcoming hardships if one doesn't discuss the hardships? Openly discussing hardships in SGI is considered complaining and a sign of weak faith. Were Nichiren in the SGI he would be vilified for being negative and for expressing his feelings:
‘My body is worn out and my spirit suffers from the daily debates, monthly persecutions, and two exiles. That is why for the last seven or eight years illnesses of aging have assailed me yearly, though none has led to a crisis’ (WND-2, 949).”
“The northern part is Mount Minobu, the southern, Mount Takatori, the western, Mount Shichimen, and the eastern, Mount Tenshi. They are like boards set up on all four sides. Around the outside of this area are four rivers. The Fuji River runs north to south and the Haya River runs west to east behind this area. In front is the Hakiri River, which runs west to east, and its tributary, which has a waterfall and is called the Minobu River. You might suppose that Eagle Peak had been moved from central India and set down here, or that Mount T’ien-t’ai had been brought from China.
In the midst of these four mountains and four rivers is a flat area no broader than the palm of one’s hand, and here I have built a little hut to shield me from the rain. I have peeled bark off trees to make my four walls, and wear a robe made of the hides of deer that died a natural death. In spring I break off ferns to nourish my body, and in autumn I gather fruit to keep myself alive. But since the eleventh month of last year the snow has been piling up, and now, into the first month of the new year, it goes on snowing. My hut is seven feet in height, but the snow outside is piled up to a depth of ten feet. I am surrounded by four walls of ice, and icicles hang down from the eaves like a necklace of jewels adorning my place of religious practice, while inside my hut snow is heaped up in place of rice.
Even in ordinary times people seldom come here, and now, with the snow so deep and the roads blocked, I have no visitors at all. So at the moment I am atoning for the karma that destines me to fall into the eight cold hells, and, far from attaining Buddhahood in this present life, I am like the cold-suffering bird. I no longer shave my head, so I look like a quail, and my robe gets so stiff with ice that it resembles the icy wings of the mandarin duck.
"To such a place, where friends from former times never come to visit, where I have been abandoned even by my own disciples, you have sent these vessels, which I heap with snow, imagining it to be rice, and from which I drink water, thinking it to be gruel. Please let your thoughts dwell on the effects of your kindness. There is much more I would like to say.”
Without this part the truth it is incomplete ""So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate You so to speak than yes it is You who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation.
It is important Mark the Sampradaya as it is called in India the discipleship succession and unbroken succession of continuity of teachings from the founder; i know is is not always possible that a qualified successor of the same caliber as the founder or establisher of the teachings can be available and thus sometimes as it is said when there is no horse donkey will do just to carry the continuation of the teachings; but at least and very important it is that these scriptures and verses and texts have clear commentaries so that there is no room for adverse interpretation and from these comments made obviously by those who are enlighten and are accepted by all the followers to be such, then from these one should draw the true purport of the teachings with its conclusions and the supporting reference so that not any Dick ,Tom and Harry would interpret them otherwise.
Some of these verses Noel has send me previously but I have interpret them in the light of my realization and in the light of Vedanta ; I could not get a clear explanation from Noel about them; I would like to get your explanation on these verses.
" The mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure aspect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion, If the pure aspect is operative , this is called enlightenment. enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realm of ordinary mortals ."
"These two aspects, the deluded and the enlightened, are indeed two different phenomena, and yet both are workings of the one principle, that is, the essential nature of phenomena, or true aspect of reality. It is like a piece of crystal, If the crystal is paced in the sun's rays, it will attract them and produce fire. But if the crystal is placed in the moon's rays, it will produce water. The crystal is a single entity, but the effects it produces differs according to circumstances. "
My question here is what is the Nature of the "crystal" itself , the pure naked nature of this Essential True nature of Reality in Itself?
"The Buddha who is the entity of Myoho-renge-kyo of the "Life Span" chapter of the essential teachings, who is inhabiting subject and inhabited realm, life and environment, body and mind, entity and function, the Buddha internally endowed with the three bodies, he is to be found in the disciples and lay believers of Nichiren. Such persons embody the true entity of Myoho-renge-kyo, this is all due to meritorious workings that the spontaneous transcendental powers inherent in it display. Could anyone venture to doubt it? Indeed it cannot be doubted!"
Also this one Katie, so this entity in this description is the entity in its fundamental essence the Amala, also the whole realm which it inhabits , the environment, the very life and function of everything, the body mind, the three internally bodies-kayas, everything in general is this entity, the whole existence, this is what I am getting from this verse; But these also can be found in everyone and everything but not perceived as such by non believers or non practitioners but still they are everywhere in all and as everything and all, right?
Stav, your questions go to the heart of our predicament, in terms of the limitations of our karma laden minds! I'll do my best to describe my understanding-- it will take longer to find exact passages to share.
"My question here is what is the Nature of the "crystal" itself , the pure naked nature of this Essential True nature of Reality in Itself?"
I lack the capacity to perceive the True Entity directly, which accords with the Buddha's prediction for the time we are living in. T'ien T'ai, whom you know was the great teacher who was able to directly perceive the 3,000 realms in a single life moment recognized the means for attaining Buddhahood in one's present form and in this lifetime was indeed contained in the Lotus Sutra. Practicing with faith in the Lotus Sutra now as Nichiren taught, I am able to experience and observe the *presence and function* of the Mystic Law, the True entity.
Two things I can say with confidence about the *nature* of the true entity, 1) It is ever present and 2) It is constant, consistent, the same--it is always thus...
While it may seem an impediment that we cannot directly perceive this Mystic Law, the true entity and ultimate true reality, there is no difference in the benefit we gain and the benefit gained by those whose wisdom was such that they could perceive it directly. That is to say, the purification of our senses, the realization of this pure aspect within us and the effects we perceive around us are in complete accord with the Buddha's golden words in the Lotus Sutra. The practice is key- chanting the daimoku, study, sharing the teaching, upholding and protecting the teaching.
"Also this one Katie, so this entity in this description is the entity in its fundamental essence the Amala,..."?
The 9 levels of consciousness are contained in one of the five components that comprise a single sentient living being. Each possesses the true entity. It would be inaccurate to ascribe the true entity itself to any component of our existence - the true entity has both an enlightened and a defiled aspect that manifests according to the *function* of each of the five components, of which consciousness is one component.
This is the crux, I think, of your dismay over *being at the whim of circumstances*-- yet, this is undeniably our predicament. there are myriad ways to bolster ourselves against adverse influences, but ultimately, the only means we have to acquire a diamond like state of existence is to directly influence the true entity contained in everything. This is the reason the daimoku of the Lotus Sutra is supreme , unsurpassed,-- ever present and consistent. It is through the experience of daily practice, over time, that these profound teachings become manifest as one's reality.
Practice [as I have already described in part] is based on faith in these teachings. The actual proof one receives becomes the basis for belief and understanding of the teachings. I personally think this is why the practice is so difficult for most people. It is more natural to proceed from understanding, than to embark with faith and gain understanding. The latter appears foolish to most people, though it follows the early stages of our development as children, when we gain more knowledge in a shorter period than we ever will again :-)
For me, it resonates with the language and metaphors the Buddha employed; that we are his children, who have become sick and The True Buddha is both father and mother who rescues us and leaves this good medicine to cure all of our ills.
Katie, The 9 levels of consciousness are contained in one of the five components that comprise a single sentient living being. Each possesses the true entity. It would be inaccurate to ascribe the true entity itself to any component of our existence - the true entity has both an enlightened and a defiled aspect that manifests according to the *function* of each of the five components, of which consciousness is one component.
But the True entity in the 9 consciousness's would be the 9th only since all the other 8 constantly are changing, also the five skandas you mention also only the consciousness is unchangeable ( if it indeed means the Consciousness itself and not a state of Consciousness) while the other 4 are changeable and cant be the true entity..
I also as you will see have made some remarks and questions on Noels mail for discussion.
Ahh Stav, You have struck the very cord that causes me to return to Nichiren's writings; a reference to T'ien-t'ai's commentary on the Lotus Sutra, " Great Concentration and insight"
In the Gosho, "The Real Aspect of the Gohonzon", Nichiren writes:
" The first volume of the Great Concentration and Insif=ght says, 'How does one hear, believe in, and practice the perfect teaching to attain perfect enlightenment?' The first volume On "Great concentration and Insight' says, ' To believe in the perfect teaching means to awaken faith through doctrine and to make faith the basis for practice." and in the same Gosho:
"The commentaries of T'ien-t'ai and Miao-lo make it perfectly clear that faith is the cornerstone."
I humbly admit that I cannot directly perceive the true entity, nor can I directly perceive the functions of the 9 levels of consciousness, but since The Buddha did not teach *consciouness* itself as the True Entity, I have never pondered the question you raise.
From my present level of understanding, I defer to the strict definition of the 9th level of consciousness, called amala-consciousness, which remains free from all karmic impurity. It is defined as the basis for all life's functions and is identified with the *true aspect of life*, or the Buddha nature.
Therefore, I would conclude that the amala consciousness constitutes the reason we can believe in the Lotus Sutra. I would also add, based on actual proof of my own faith and practice, the this pure and eternal level of consciousness is enhanced by the actions one takes to evoke the enlightened aspect of the True entity-; that chanting daimoku with a mind of belief and faith in the Lotus Sutra causes the the other 8 levels of consciousness to approximate the function of the amala. I say this due to the undeniable actual proof ( personal experience) of purification of one's senses , thoughts, cognition, judgments about the external world , awareness of self and the ability to distinguish good from evil-- I can perceive that the True entity, or Mystic Law is NEEDED for this to occur, which is to say that the amala , though pure and unchanging,cannot transform the lower levels of consciousness itself.
I believe that this would explain why meditation and study alone, are not sufficient ; that the extent of the impure alaya, karmic "storehouse" has rendered us incapable of achieving enlightenment through any means other than faith in and practice of the Lotus, as taught by Nichiren Daishonin.
I would also have to admit, I have found no reason to seek any other means :-)
Hello Katie, When I say Consciousness I mean Pure Consciousness or fundamental consciousness strictly speaking in contrast to the functions or states of consciousness which are described as the eight other 'consciousness' we may say that that all the eight have consciousness but really it is because of the Ninth the True Self or True Consciousness that the other exist and get activated and exhibit a consciousness; it is like a fire which enters metal and makes it luminous and fiery appearing as being fire itself but is only permeated and activated by it. I don't see the reason why the 9 consciousness cannot be perceived they are objective to us of course we cant see the whole subconscious of the 8th and the superconscious totally but we get glimpses and some awareness of it ( speaking more for my self ) others may live more with greater awareness of the them while others are oblivious living only outwards and on the surface. From my understanding of my line of practice but also from the below quotes it seems clear that any purification of any transformation springs and comes from the Amala to the rest of the members of our being. Through the practice it gets "activated" or awakened and comes forward; we don't really create it it is always there as it has been many times said " the Buddha nature doesn't increase neither decrease, neither praise makes it better or purer neither blames make worst or defiled. It is Perfect unlimited containing all the potentialities and possibilities of manifestation. I believe from my experience and the testimony of scriptures that by the practice one don't makes it better or improves it the True Nature - Amala - True Entity but just creates the suitable condition for It to manifest or being perceived. Of course you have the faith that only through the Chanting of the Lotus sutra and its teachings can one activate it; I believe through experience that can be and is activated by other means as well but that is another subject from the present focus of the entity or true nature of mind ( which this word is inter-used for the essential Amala and also for the whole being , environment and function which I was trying to separate them into their context putting things in order and gradually coming to see what is the true teaching which is presented here and where comes because of that the misreading and the thus different conclusions from yours and Noel's ).
"The most fundamental layer of consciousness is the ninth or Amala consciousness. Unstained by the workings of karma, this consciousness represents our true, eternal self. The revolutionary aspect of Nichiren Buddhism is that it seeks to directly bring forth the energy of this consciousness--the enlightened nature of the Buddha--thus purifying the other, more superficial layers of consciousness."
Because the eighth consciousness transcends the boundaries of the individual, merging with the latent energy of one's family, one's ethnic group, and also with that of animals and plants, a positive change in this karmic energy becomes a "cogwheel" for change in the lives of others. As SGI President Daisaku Ikeda writes, "When we activate this fundamentally pure consciousness, the energy of all life's good and evil karma is directed toward value creation; and the mind or consciousness...of humankind is infused with the life current of compassion and wisdom." Nichiren identified the practice of chanting the phrase Nam-myoho-renge-kyo as the basic means for activating the ninth consciousness in our lives.
Hi Katie , Just to correct what I wrote and didn't intend to sound like that " I don't see the reason why the 9 consciousness cannot be perceived they are objective to us of course we cant see the whole subconscious of the 8th and the superconscious totally but we get glimpses and some awareness of it ( speaking more for my self ) others may live more with greater awareness of the them while others are oblivious living only outwards and on the surface." The 6 can be easily objective to us the 7th needs reflection stand back so to speak and look at it this too can be though subjective brought objectively by observation through inner consciousness as well as the 8th consciousness which whatever it brings more on the surface and also through calmness and stillness of mind and through a witness-like perception can become to a certain way objective to our inner consciousness, the 9th consciousness is not objective you cannot come out of your self neither place it in front of you in any objective way so it is subjective but not in the way like our psychological mental-emotional changeable states which can be viewed as subjective-objective content but 9th Consciousness or True Consciousness Self-Amala is truly speaking Super Subjective or the Super Subject.
I have very little knowledge about the practice of meditation other than basic forms that are described in techniques used in alternative/complimentary nursing. I am referring to biofeedback, relaxation, visualization, etc. My prior admission, regarding not having the ability to directly perceive *how the levels of consciousness function*, is partially due to my lack of knowledge, but is also a statement that reflects my faith in the teachings of Nichiren. In " The Doctrine of Three Thousand Realms in a Single Moment of Life" (1258) Nichiren states:
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?"
"In the 'Teacher of the Law' chapter of the Lotus sutra, the Buddha states "Medicine King, though there may be many persons, those still living in the household and those who have left it, who practice the way of the bodhisattva, if they are not willing to see, hear, read, recite, copy, embrace, and offer alms to this Lotus Sutra, then you should know that such persons are not yet practicing the bodhisattva way in a fitting manner. But if there are those who will listen to this sutra, then they are capable of practicing the bodhisattva way in a fitting manner." "
Nichiren continues: "If the sutra meant that one could attain Buddhahood through contemplation of the mind alone, then why would it speak of "seeing, hearing, reading, reciting"? This sutra makes "hearing" the sole basis of practice."
"And I, Nichiren, declare that these words, "whether one accepts or rejects," "though one may comply with or go against them," constitute a passage worthy to be engraved on the heart.This is what the Lotus Sutra means when it says, "If there are those who hear the Law[then, not a one will fail to attain Buddhahood]." Here it speaks of those "who hear the Law." but if it were referring to those who attain Buddhahood through meditation, it would say, "If there are those who meditate on the Law."
"When we chant this Myoho-renge-kyo, the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest. Our bodies and minds are comparable to the storehouse of the teachings, and the word myo is comparable to the seal [that permits the opening of the storehouse]. "
There is much more depth and detail in the "The Correct Method of Contemplation"- "Determining the Similarities and differences between the Lotus Sutra and the Teaching of Concentration and Insight"- Written by Nichiren 1274, addressed to Sairen-bo, a learned priest. The core of this teaching requires an understanding of the difference between the theoretical and essential teachings of the Lotus Sutra. I think you will find greater clarity in Nichiren's doctrinal treatises, than in writings like, "On Attaining Buddhahood."
I think it is also helpful to note that,Nichiren follows one teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha, and thus adheres strictly to the one teaching Shakyamuni himself claimed was superior to all other sutras he had preached or would preach, the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren's own life was a testament to the Truth found only in the Lotus Sutra.
I have studied Nichiren's writings from a mind of faith, based on my response to "hearing the Law", which I appreciate as a vastly different perspective from those who have studied and practiced other forms of Buddhism and teachings such as you are sharing here. My understanding is that, due to our lacking the capacity for wisdom and the quotes I shared above, both referencing the Buddha's golden words; we must keep faith foremost in our minds, and not be swayed by doubt or disbelief, if we aspire to attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime.
Buddha Sakyamuni in his time and Nichiren in his time had to combat different forms of teachings; but those are only of those of what they were aware of in there own time and geographical area. There are other spiritual and religious paths which were not at their time neither in there locality and thus they dont mentioned them neither are aware of them.
Till now i haven't mentioned to you any other forms of Buddhism but only your Nichiren Buddhism and the 2 quotes by Ikeda which is from your Nichiren Buddhism.
You speak of listening the Lotus sutra , yes listening is the first but then there is contemplation on the teachings heard and practical application, mere hearing won't do without the others.
You are mentioning meditation as something in sufficient but that depends on what one meditates and on what teachings; I have shared little bit of some teachings and my understanding from the light of my teachings and i dont have any contradiction of the essential teaching of Nichiren. You are speaking of the listening of the teachings of the lotus sutra and chant which is also a chanting which is a form of meditation.
What is important is that the teachings be true; if Lotus scriptures speaks about the existence and the purpose of life and there truths in them are universal then any serious seeker of truth will recognize their truth; but lets not limit the truth only to the scripture of the Lotus recitation; What you do is great Katie to want to realize and live in grater truth of consciousness and life but just be open for the possibility that there may be and are other lines of approach to the universal truth which we all share and live in. After all our very Life the Essence of our existence is within all and we are all part of that existence and there is no single organization under certain banner who posses the truth in an exclusive monopoly. I am saying this because thats how and where all the sectarian and separatist mentality comes from. It is good for one to love and be loyal to what one has accepted in faith and experience and follow but it is not right neither true that other paths dont walk and live the Universal teachings.
We have to realize soon or later what we listen at first and follow; what you indicate that other practices apart from chanting nam moyho renge kyo cannot access the truth and full Realization of Buddhahood and you do this chanting and then you say " that you cant perceive directly the 9 levels of consciousness, that would mean then that you cant perceive the teachings of the 3000 realms in single moment of life either and which you have only faith in" but others can who dont chant the exact formula nam myoho renge kyo but are aware of the truth which the Lotus Sutra speaks without reading the Lotus Sutra. It has happened many times in the life of realized beings when they read or were presented with certain teachings they just confirmed ( what the teachings taught ) what they had already realized just expressed in particular different way or very similar or same way. If the truth is Universal and is perceivable by some then it can be perceived by others as well; the essence of life is within us we are in life and part of life and it is within the reach of everyone to access with the right training; and there is not only one method as you suppose and in that i am inclined to disagree.
When i went through Zhiyis ( of Tian Tai ) teachings about the 3000 realms at single moment of life it was mentioned that was mainly for the understanding and contemplation in that account. It might have been presented in different number greater or smaller then 3000 depends on the detail of the description of the different levels of consciousness; as i mention in Vedanta for example the are 14 worlds and not 9 consciousnesses of categorical function but 11 and so with this calculation the realms would be more then 3000. What i am trying to say is the truth what these teachings try to convey is the most important rather them some fixed numbered structure. And so what is important is the truth of what the scripture of lotus Sutra teaches; if it is a universal truth it has to be experienced by everyone under the guidance of those who have seen and live in that truth.
Katie you have mentioned few times about the concept of 3000 realms to be frank this is perceivable by all the serious practitioners it is not a unique perception by Tiantai or Nichiren; the number 3000 and the way it is expressed as a structure that is unique to them but as the truth which that idea of 3000 realms tries to convey which is of all these things taking place in the universe and in our selves in this very moment; Christ and other realized beings were aware of this happening; if you look at the brief description of the Vedantic view of the universe which i shared in mail to Noel and the beings it is evident how we are interconnected and influencing each other and so the influences from different dimensions , from our own external environment, from other beings visible and invisible, from the collective earth consciousness and subconsciousness, from genetic inheritance of the unconscious beginnings of this present cycle of material universe, genetic inheritances from genes and environmental and social consciousness, from our own subconscious mind, from our own conscious mind what we broadcast and receive through our senses, bodies and mind etc..these are all happening right now and pass through us right now and influence us; that is why discrimination and the practice of contemplation on the teachings is vital otherwise we are like a mall a market place we are a market anything and everything to enter and move us like puppets. Through practice we can be open to higher consciousness and inspiration and thus be protected from hostile attacks and low consciousness and allow only things which are favorable to enter for our development of divine nature and awakening to a greater light and consciousness rejecting all that is opposed to this striving and aspiration and with that higher and higher consciousness and its purifying effect we can rise higher and higher in illumination and realized experience and from that consciousness with its light bring that light on or bringing into that light all the lower elements and states of consciousness and transforming them into the consciousness of that Higher realization the total structure.
I think we have to universalized our religion or spiritual path and practice that will unite us in this world all under one universal religion which non the less has its different aspects of emphasis and teachings in that one universality.
I have been pondering your last paragraph --I think we have to universalized our religion or spiritual path and practice that will unite us in this world all under one universal religion which non the less has its different aspects of emphasis and teachings in that one universality."
and reorienting myself to the purpose of our dialogue, the questions I wanted to answer as a practitioner of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism.
What is the highest teaching? What is the purpose for practicing and propagating it?
Again, I defer to Nichiren:
"Now what is known as a teaching of importance is nothing special. One who can, in accordance with the time, discern without the slightest error what is important both for oneself and for the country is a person of wisdom.The Buddha is called worthy of respect because he ponders the past and knows the future. Nothing surpasses the wisdom of knowing the three existences. Although they were not Buddhas, because sages and worthies such as Nagarjuna, Vasubandhu, T'ien-t'ai, and Dengyo. though not nearly to the same degree as the Buddha, generally understood the affairs of the three existences, their names have been passed on into the future. Ultimately, all phenomena are contained within one's life, down to the last particle of dust. the nine mountains and the eight seas are encompassed in one's body, and the sun, moon, and myriad stars are found in one's life. We. however, are like a blind person who is incapable of seeing images reflected in a mirror, or like an infant who has no fear of war or fire. The teachings such as those of the non-Buddhist writings and those of the Hinayana and provisional Mahayana Buddhist scriptures all partially explain the phenomenons inherent in one's life. THEY DO NOT EXPLAIN THEM AS THE LOTUS SUTRA DOES." (The Mongol Envoys. WND vol 1. p.628-9)
I do not contemplate the nine consciousnesses, nor would I employ my wisdom derived from faith to seek to directly perceive the nine consciousnesses because Nichiren has specifically addressed this as worthless endeavor in The Latter Day. Contemplating the *teachings* for our Time, is chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo with a mind of faith.
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?" ( "The Doctrine of 3,000 Realms in a single Moment of Life")
What is the highest teaching? One that is universally available to all, regardless of one's capacity. -
"Even an ignorant person can receive blessings by serving someone who expounds the Lotus Sutra-- But how great is the difference between the blessings received when a sage chants the daimoku and the blessings received when we chant it? To reply, ONE IS IN NO WAY SUPERIOR TO THE OTHER. the gold that a fool possesses is in no way different than the gold that a wise man possesses, a fire made by a fool is the same as a fire made by a wise man" ("The fourteen Slanders")
Nichiren states. "... those who share in and believe in the Lotus Sutra are entities of that mystic sutra." ("The entity of The Mystic Law")
""When we chant this Myoho-renge-kyo, the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest. Our bodies and minds are comparable to the storehouse of the teachings, and the word myo is comparable to the seal [that permits the opening of the storehouse]. "
"The most important thing in practicing the Buddhist teachings is to follow and uphold the Buddha's golden words, not the opinions of others." and-- "Now, in the Latter Day of the Law, who is carrying out the practice of shakubuku in strict accordance with the Lotus Sutra? Suppose someone, no matter who, should unrelentingly proclaim that THE LOTUS SUTRA ALONE VAN LEAD PEOPLE TO BUDDHAHOOD AND THAT ALL OTHER SUTRAS , FAR FROM ENABLING THEM TO ATTAIN THE WAY, ONLY DRIVE THEM INTO HELL. Observe what happens should that person try to refute the teachers and the doctrines of all other schools. the three powerful enemies will arise without fail." ( "On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings.")
I think that right here in this thread, there is actual proof of this teaching of Nichiren's--- see Noel's responses to Mark and to me.
Unless we are focused on the teaching, "This wonderful Law, which is foremost and unexcelled..." we are not discussing the profound truth of the Lotus Sutra-- and missing the greatest implication, that "This law [myoho-renge-kyo] should in fact be the basis of prayers"-- ("Those Initially Aspiring To The Way")
Life simultaneously possesses the potential for both good and evil, and even when manifesting one, it is never devoid of the potential for the other
The mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure aspect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion. If the pure aspect is operative, this is called enlightenment. Enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realms of ordinary mortals. These two aspects, the deluded and the enlightened, are indeed two different phenomena, and yet both are workings of the one principle, that is, the essential nature of phenomena, or the true aspect of reality
Potentiality is a possibility which may turn to actuality under certain conditions but when the conditions are removed and are absent then the potentiality too doesn't exist; can the conditions be removed fully like the ignorance from a human being? and from ordinary ignorant or half enlighten being to turn into a fully divine or fully Enlighten being?
This is the topic which was discussed by us before; and from the Scriptures of Nichiren Buddhism and from the line of spiritual path and scriptures which are my main following and practice both testify "non-retrogression no more falling back into ignorance, full freedom full enlightenment;
Just like the sun when has fully risen and the darkness or half light has been vanished the fear and ignorance of the mistaking the rope for a snake is removed and everything is seen as it is; the actuality and potentiality too are vanished!
“But stop, Shariputra, I will say no more. Why? Because what the buddhas have achieved is the rarest and most difficult-to-understand Law.
The true aspect of all phenomena can only be understood and shared between buddhas.
This reality consists of the appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning to end.” Lotus Sutra: 2 Expedient Means
"The true aspect of all phenomena can only be understood and shared between buddhas" then you have no say and I have no say right? But still we can share what we know from the scriptures and from our own little or whatever degree of personal realization. The word potential could mean also latent; whatever is latent will arise sooner or later under right conditions and stimulations; you say life contains the potential for both good and evil but that depends what kind of life is that , of an ignorant person or fully enlighten person. Do you mean to say that Buddha can manifest evil? or if he cant then that would appear a limitation of free will and choice making him no better then automaton a mechanical unthinking unfeeling living; Another question do the Buddhas thinking evil thoughts? Obviously not because soon or later they will have to act on them and that is not the case from what we can see from their deeds, from their words , from their love and affection and compassionate wisdom it shows they don't harbor such thoughts. But obviously they are aware of them because they exist in the environment and are manifested through beings; so they may know of them and even think of them as to the ways to deal with them and transformed them but they are not their own; the lusts and greed's and violence's and all sort of evil things born of the ignorance are not their cherishing's and something which they secretly seek and hunger for; if there was still something in the Buddha which under association of lusty men, greedy men, evil minded men could something be triggered or awakened as something which was still there latent or potential then that would mean that the "Buddha" has still work to do on himself and thus he is not truly a Buddha. If the Buddha still caries the potential he cannot be trusted and he cannot make assurances like these " “Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.” “I am the only person”—
Everything comes from latent karma or seeds , if they are burned in the fire of wisdom of true enlightenment then they cannot sprout anything any more they are all eradicated. The potential for any recurrence is gone and finished; there is no potential for them to appear; as I pointed before if there is something in a person which touches somewhere in him/her something which arises and is evoked it means that that is still there latent a potential to manifest. We can see in our lives too in more familiar things how we behaved in our early younger years and how we are now and how some things are impossible or unthinkable for us now to do; or how certain things and desires meant so much to us at sometimes and now we may look back and think how foolish and insignificant some things were and how could we have been like that before and how certain things have lost their appeal and attraction to us that we never think of them again, and nothing is awakened in us again in there presence or their mentioning. Or how many time we see people coming with something some issue or with some desires and tastes that they don't mean nothing to us they don't even touch us in the slightest; there is nothing in us left of that kind as even a potential anymore; You may argue that if someone who don't have at first an attraction or taste or desire for something by repeated association he'she may develop a taste a craving and attachment as result; that is true but when you went through certain experiences again and again and you saw what they really are and what they do to you and after always live you kind of empty and not truly fulfilled then you loose the taste and attraction for them; then probably as happens with all of us we seek a higher taste a higher meaning in life, something more real , substantial and true. something that will fill us and bring lasting joy; and we are in search and open and come to spiritual life seeing the vanity of the way of the world; and so gradually through practice we gain more calmness, purity clear perception , inner strength, inner joy and so many other things that all the rest falls away; and if we proceed as we do further and further on this path then a time will come and is gradually coming that all the latent seeds and any possibility of recurrence too will vanish.
So how can a Buddha be influenced and attracted to things he/she left behind as worthless compare to this attainment? what can pull him down or away from that attainment? a potential? a possibility? an accidental slip? a choice.?? The full sun has risen in him and can see all clearly the illusions and vanities, the possibilities and potentialities and the truths and enlightenments of a Beautifully True and Harmonious Being and Living..
According to Vedanta in the Highest state there is not even the potential. So you may say then how these things the deluded or lower beings and consciousness manifest? The water from the clouds is pure till it touches the ground and gets muddy or soiled; ( For some Christians this is a creation of God that went wrong , it was not intended like this but the devil spoiled everything.) So the potential for anything begins the moment a "portion" of That enters into manifestation That in itself is always Free but wilfully, intentionally, purposefully and not because of some latent evil or latent ignorance or accident or mistake enters into formation and gets covered by it and affected by the environment and then al the accumulation and latencies and potentials come into play. The Buddha says the cause of suffering is because of Trishna or thirst once you are already dipped in , Krishna in the Gita uses different expression and says the cause of suffering is ignorance, fundamental ignorance of ones being as an Eternal Spiritual Being. So one now in this cosmic "play" has to disentangle oneself from all this maya or apparent illusion and reinstate oneself in ones True Being and True Nature, then everything will drop away from one even the latent seedlike tendencies and potentials from further recurrence.
Another point
Buddhahood[edit]
Buddhahood is the highest of the Ten Worlds, a condition of pure, indestructible happiness which is not dependent on one's circumstances. The experiencer is totally free from all delusion, suffering and anger. It is a condition of perfect and absolute freedom, characterized by boundless wisdom, courage, compassion and life force. This realm is difficult to describe and is generally only obtained through the direct internal perception of the realm of realization. This realm is characterized by not being shifted into lower realms due to external sources, and the non-reliance on external sources for happiness. This realm is manifested outwardly through the actions of the realm of bodhisattvahood.
In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha declares that all living beings can become a Buddha. The Buddha also inculcates the aspiration of attaining Buddhahood in his disciples. The aspiration toward Buddhahood is the key to eventually arrive at the shore of Supreme Perfect Enlightenment, i.e. Buddhahood.
In Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Buddha explains the state of Buddhahood that is characterized by four qualities - True Self, Eternity, Purity, Happiness. All sentient beings have the Buddha-Nature within them, and hence all living beings are capable of attaining Buddhahood.
This is exactly what you still dont undersatnd and i try to meke a point to you that i do believe and accept what your teachings is stating and that is not a provisional teaching it is a teaching of the now of your Buddhism that the World of Buddhahood is " Buddhahood: Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, WE CAN RESOLVE HARMONIOUSLY WHAT APPEAR FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE NINE WORLDS TO BE INSOLUBBLE CONTRADICTIONS. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a TRUE SELF, PERFECT FREEDOM from KARMIK BONDS THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!!.. , a LIFE PURIFIED OF ILLUSION, and ABSOLUTE HAPPINESS!!. This is what i accept whole heartedly;
I dont accept the teachings which you claim and have no scriptural support that all the Buddhas will eventiuly fall into delusion and lower forms of life which you have stated in the previous mail; and on the contrary you send me something which claims that Buddha entered extinction; Your scripture doesn't say that the individual who have attain full Buddhahood will become again deluded and enter the lower forms of life on the contrary it seems to state that it will be extinct; this is what you send me " The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfil four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the Buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfil these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
This i dont belive that above i believe as i told you many times in full realization of Buddhahood and enlightenment in this very body on earth, one no need to go into high heavens (* unles one wants ) to attain full enlightenment and freedom from delusion and lower nature , neither one need to enter extinction beyond the manifestation into some formless Substance or Essence to be fully free; on the contrary to you i believe in a total perfection unlike you who believes that there cant be full freedom and eternal in ones individual attainment and that is why my last mail i send bellow to express that. I have more faith and positive outlook at the prospect of full enlightenmet as a permanent individual attainment inspite of the universal aspect of ignorance still in existence, although in enlightennt state the illusion which appear to half awake will be percieved differently as potentially inherent with perfect involed essence to be realized in time.
My Spirituality is positive and dynamic witha faith of total individual freedom from illusion just like the world of Buddhahod states and you disbelieve giving it diferenet interpretation while denying the open clear statement it makes."
Is it meaningless talk to want to state the truth? A lot of good clarification came through all this, with your and Katie's input as well; it seems here are still some things to be clarified and that's what is taking place. So why being negative about it.
If Myoho renge kyo does not contain and is not contained in what is being discussed here then it must be apart and not belong to this life and universe!
Mark I am surprised that you can write off all that's said as meaningless prattle. I actually thought you were part of the conversation until I checked the previous posts and realised that it was all addressed to me
Everything can be infused with Divine consciousness and thus transformed because ultimately everything is a manifestation of consciousness and force; But what The Buddha manifests is vey very different from ignorant or half awakened men; Everything comes from that High Illumined Consciousness and when one is permanently situated in that Consciousness there are no slips, neither potentialities for evil nor choices or wishes for one to forsake ones Highest state of reinstatement and attainment. This go's against All the great known scriptures! Even when Christ took pieces of strips of lather and make them into a whip and chased away all those who made the Holy Temple a market place he show "anger"; we are told to become free of anger, but what is anger after all, it is a force a powerful concentrated force placed or focused towards some person or object. When this force and the consciousness behind that force is separated with separated small selfish interests and acts on their account then it is highly undesirable action; when this force is directed for some great cause and in the case of Christ he was generally to general people very patient kind and loving but when it came to principles or the corruption of the priest and authorities of learned men who twist or were hypocritical in their faith as leaders and authority and also as he said to them " not only you won't get in " the Kingdom of God " but you also prevent others or create obstacles who want to "get In" then he was a dynamic activist.
Also he would be strict and firm at times with those near him his disciples in their training. But all this was out of love at the background of all these and any other ways he exhibit spontaneously (as tools or instrument) to effectuate his mission to reveal and restore the Truth.
So it seems in the Highest Enlighten attainment there too is place and time for this use of force or any other means but those are very different the way they are used and the purpose which is always with a greater vision and significance which is rooted in the welfare and upliftment of all to greater happiness and harmony, and thus there is no motivation or intention in them and their action of any form of evil; in very contrast of the ignorant men's display of anger and other qualities due to ignorance.
"I think we have to universalized our religion or spiritual path and practice that will unite us in this world all under one universal religion which non the less has its different aspects of emphasis and teachings in that one universality."
and reorienting myself to the purpose of our dialogue, the questions I wanted to answer as a practitioner of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism, I had this response, or summary/conclusion:
What is the highest teaching? What is the purpose for practicing and propagating it?
Again, I defer to Nichiren:
"Now what is known as a teaching of importance is nothing special. One who can, in accordance with the time, discern without the slightest error what is important both for oneself and for the country is a person of wisdom.The Buddha is called worthy of respect because he ponders the past and knows the future. Nothing surpasses the wisdom of knowing the three existences. Although they were not Buddhas, because sages and worthies such as Nagarjuna, Vasubandhu, T'ien-t'ai, and Dengyo. though not nearly to the same degree as the Buddha, generally understood the affairs of the three existences, their names have been passed on into the future. Ultimately, all phenomena are contained within one's life, down to the last particle of dust. the nine mountains and the eight seas are encompassed in one's body, and the sun, moon, and myriad stars are found in one's life. We. however, are like a blind person who is incapable of seeing images reflected in a mirror, or like an infant who has no fear of war or fire. The teachings such as those of the non-Buddhist writings and those of the Hinayana and provisional Mahayana Buddhist scriptures all partially explain the phenomenons inherent in one's life. THEY DO NOT EXPLAIN THEM AS THE LOTUS SUTRA DOES." (The Mongol Envoys. WND vol 1. p.628-9)
I do not contemplate the nine consciousnesses, nor would I employ my wisdom derived from faith to seek to directly perceive the nine consciousnesses because Nichiren has specifically addressed this as worthless endeavor in The Latter Day. Contemplating the *teachings* for our Time, is chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo with a mind of faith.
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?" ( "The Doctrine of 3,000 Realms in a single Moment of Life") ~Katie
What is the highest teaching? One that is universally available to all, regardless of one's capacity.
Nichiren states. "... those who share in and believe in the Lotus Sutra are entities of that mystic sutra." ("The entity of The Mystic Law")
""When we chant this Myoho-renge-kyo, the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest. Our bodies and minds are comparable to the storehouse of the teachings, and the word myo is comparable to the seal [that permits the opening of the storehouse]. "
"The most important thing in practicing the Buddhist teachings is to follow and uphold the Buddha's golden words, not the opinions of others." and-- "Now, in the Latter Day of the Law, who is carrying out the practice of shakubuku in strict accordance with the Lotus Sutra? Suppose someone, no matter who, should unrelentingly proclaim that THE LOTUS SUTRA ALONE VAN LEAD PEOPLE TO BUDDHAHOOD AND THAT ALL OTHER SUTRAS , FAR FROM ENABLING THEM TO ATTAIN THE WAY, ONLY DRIVE THEM INTO HELL. Observe what happens should that person try to refute the teachers and the doctrines of all other schools. the three powerful enemies will arise without fail." ( "On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings.")
I think that right here in this thread, there is actual proof of this teaching of Nichiren's---
Unless we are focused on the teaching, "This wonderful Law, which is foremost and unexcelled..." we are not discussing the profound truth of the Lotus Sutra-- and missing the greatest implication, that "This law [myoho-renge-kyo] should in fact be the basis of prayers"-- ("Those Initially Aspiring To The Way")
No other information is useful-- for those aspiring to perfect enlightenment for the sake of ALL living beings. ~In my humble opinion~
You say "Even an ignorant person can receive blessings by serving someone who expounds the Lotus Sutra-- But how great is the difference between the blessings received when a sage chants the daimoku and the blessings received when we chant it? To reply, ONE IS IN NO WAY SUPERIOR TO THE OTHER. the gold that a fool possesses is in no way different than the gold that a wise man possesses, a fire made by a fool is the same as a fire made by a wise man" ("The fourteen Slanders")
Since everyone has within him/her the True nature anyone can awaken that with the right ways and means. there is a differenrce even in chanting between the fully realized, between mature practitioner and noephyte; that is undeniable, every practitioner knows that there are levels and degrees of practtitioners of their advencment and purity and realization; though anyone can take part in it even the most ignorant witout much capacity but there is a time factor to reach the full enlightenment; everyone may chant but the depth and the realization of one who chants veries greatly!
The statements in quotation marks are directly from the writings of Nichiren, who strictly adhered to the True Buddha's golden words. Throughout Nichiren's writings, there are passages he has quoted from the Lotus Sutra, describing in more detail this most difficult to believe and understand teaching, that ALL who take faith in the Lotus Sutra will attain the same benefits as the Buddha, Shakyamuni. Nichiren teaches chanting the daimoku, Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, also emphasizing that this practice is accessible to everyone, regardless of capacity. When you say:
"Since everyone has within him/her the True nature anyone can awaken that with the right ways and means. there is a differenrce even in chanting between the fully realized, between mature practitioner and neophyte."
You must not forget the key point, that is; *the means* for awakening the inherent Buddhahood is Nichiren's teaching from the Lotus Sutra, chanting the daimoku. It is the same for everyone! Nichiren states :
"The blessings gained by arousing a single moment of faith in and understanding of the Lotus Sutra surpass those of practicing the five paramitas, and the benefit enjoyed by the fiftieth person who rejoices on hearing the Lotus Sutra is greater than that acquired by giving alms for eighty years. The doctrine of the immediate attainment of enlightenment far outshines the doctrines of of other scriptures; and the pronouncements concerning the revelation of the Buddha's original enlightenment and his immeasurable life span are never found in any other teachings...This is the king of sutras defying description in words, the wonderful Law that is beyond the minds power to comprehend. "
and,
" When you look at those of superior capacity, do not disparage yourself. The Buddha's true intention was that no one, even those of inferior capacity, be denied enlightenment. conversely, when you compare yourself with persons of inferior capacity, do not be arrogant and overproud. Even persons of superior capacity may be excluded from enlightenment if they do not devote themselves wholeheartedly."("Embracing The Lotus Sutra" WND vol 1, pg. 60)
So, stav, each argument you raise, from your own understanding, points back to "faith as the cornerstone" for attaining the unsurpassed benefits contained only in the Lotus Sutra. The "wonderful Law that is beyond the minds power to comprehend", is Namu-myoho-renge-kyo.
Your references to "levels and degrees of practitioners of their advancement and purity and realization", are not appropriate applications for practitioners of the Lotus Sutra, so far as beginners and those with *superior capacity*are concerned. The reason is that it is diligence in practice and deepening one's faith in the Law and not the stage of practice or the length of time practicing, that determines a practitioners *advancement*-- Meaning a beginner could surpass one who has practiced for 20 or more years- IF the seasoned practitioner becomes negligent and the beginner is diligent! Namu- means to devote one's life-- THIS is key to attaining Buddhahood.
Nichiren teaches :" As for the time of its propagation, the Lotus sutra spreads during the latter age, when the Buddha's Law is about to perish. As for the what capacity of persons it is suited to, it can save even those who commit the five cardinal sins, or who slander the correct teaching. therefore, you must be guided by the intent of [the Lotus Sutra. which is]m the immediate attainment of enlightenment, and never give yourself up to the mistaken views that stem from doubts or attachments." ("Embracing The Lotus Sutra")
So, when you contend that, " everyone may chant but the depth and the realization of one who chants veries greatly!"
I would argue that this is due solely to the individual, unique differences in each of us, based on our own individual karma-- HOWEVER, these *realizations* you are referring to are not a prerequisite for, nor are they the actual unsurpassed benefits of practicing faith; "single-mindedly chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo".
In other words, the benefit is our immediate, instantaneous enlightenment , though we "may taste only a tiny fraction of the everlasting joys that await" us--We are moment to moment purifying all of our senses when we chant. It makes no difference that we cannot perceive or even conceive of this True Entity, myoho-renge-kyo- it permeates all three thousand realms of life in the moment we chant it-.
After 28 years chanting, I become overjoyed, to the point of tears, sharing the teachings that describe the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni's intent and the truth of them both that is available to everyone who embraces the Mystic Law, chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo-- is the greatest of all joys!!
I will answer your other comments later, stav-- am currently babysitting my grand children and three English Springer Spaniels- best not to spend too much time at the computer :-0
Hi Katie, yes i can understand that not wanting to spend to much time on the computer; and i especially when to comes to arguing ^-^ , enjoy your time with the two legged and four legged Sx
I will just make so clarification here; you may answer in your own time; i feel we are not exactly in tune you seem to speak of the entrance and accessibility and approach of all in regard to the chanting of the Lotus Sutra, in that i am in no disagreement at all with you. But i am speaking of the advancement specifically and of the attainment' i have been few decades involved in practice too and know from experience that everything that is written or said in the scriptures can be tested, and where can be tested in the very life only. And everything for validation no matter who says it even Buddha himself said " Do not accept any of my words on faith, Believing them just because I said them. Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts, burns, And critically examines his product for authenticity. Only accept what passes the test By proving useful and beneficial in your life. The Buddha (Jnanasara-samuccaya)
And the chanting and the Teachings of Buddha are indeed beneficial; but what you say: " I would argue that this is due solely to the individual, unique differences in each of us, based on our own individual karma-- HOWEVER, these *realizations* you are referring to are not a prerequisite for, nor are they the actual unsurpassed benefits of practicing faith; "single-mindedly chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo".
Anyone can practice the faith but the past or past live's accumulation of spiritual merit make very difference from individual to individual, how much one deeply understands and is more aware and sensitive and more conscious to clearly grasp the teachings; also one has a great life perception in general.
In other words, the benefit is our immediate, instantaneous enlightenment , though we "may taste only a tiny fraction of the everlasting joys that await" us--We are moment to moment purifying all of our senses when we chant. It makes no difference that we cannot perceive or even conceive of this True Entity, myoho-renge-kyo- it permeates all three thousand realms of life in the moment we chant it-.
One advances even without perceiving or having some flashy experiences definitely it is growth and awakening of Consciousness thats most important but through practice sincere practice the full realization of Buddhahood has to come; not just some enlightenment but the full realization; just a faith without realization is just a beginning; Just like as has been said too in the Bible "faith without works is dead" on has to live it and who lives it the most then the one who is Fully awakened.
And you know there are many chanters and many chanters i have met who even shed tears but then in life and their dealings their consciousness is low; there is sometimes too much sentimentalism and emotion but no deep realization of the teachings, neither change and purity into the truth of the teachings. You have seen people through their chanting and prayers and their faith without realization and clear understanding of what their own scriptures, without clear and pure life perception how many fanatics and narrow people are there. All because of lack of true Realization and Enlightenment.
The reason is that it is diligence in practice and deepening one's faith in the Law and not the stage of practice or the length of time practicing, that determines a practitioners *advancement*-- Meaning a beginner could surpass one who has practiced for 20 or more years- IF the seasoned practitioner becomes negligent and the beginner is diligent! Namu- means to devote one's life-- THIS is key to attaining Buddhahood.
But deep faith Katie comes from realization of the teachings and from steady and sincere practice.
Hi Stav, if I knew the destination ahead of time, or had a firm grasp of the ultimate goal of my practice of Nichiren's Buddhism, I would not need to have faith, just a plan---and by the same token, if I had not deepened my faith in the Lotus Sutra by practicing as Nichiren taught for [the past 28 years], I would not have studied and come to believe in Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha, and the Lotus Sutra as the unsurpassed teaching. WE are in tune, I think, on the significance and the experience of * a practice * that accords with specific teachings...
I agree that a spiritual practice is putting scriptural teachings to the test, and that this testing occurs within our very lives. Now, consider what practicing a teaching that IS the essence of our lives would test-- not the truth of the scriptures, but the truth of our lives is revealed. It is inexpressible in words...
Also consider:
Chanting the Mystic Law IS the teaching, IS our True essence, but it is also the True essence of all things, of all phenomena -- It would be virtually impossible NOT to appreciate the profound effect of reciting the daimoku; of resonating with all life , all phenomena throughout the universe. As life is constantly in flux, always changing moment to moment it is impossible to know or predict what will impact our consciousness, or where the experience may lead in terms of awakening and realization. I do know that the desire to study Nichiren's writings and the Lotus Sutra can be a natural effect of chanting daimoku, as I experienced a thirst for study as validation for my experience as opposed to seeking to experience what was written in the teachings. Though I later learned that I can grasp, conceptualize and actualize Nichiren's more difficult teachings by chanting daimoku. No question that I approach the study of everything relevant to my life-- family, work, creative projects- after chanting daimoku with faith and gratitude for the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren-- there is no surer means for success beyond my imagining.
Aside from embracing the Law and chanting it, there is no requirement that we amend or revise ourselves, our thoughts, etc. according to commandments, or prohibitions. Therefore, to me, at least, it did not really matter IF the teacher, Nichiren or the Buddha Shakyamuni could be proven valid or not. I was losing nothing, changing nothing and expecting nothing when I began to chant. Nichiren and Shakyamuni have gained my absolute trust based on my own experience chanting and studying their teachings.
Ultimately, guess I am saying the Mystic Law is my teacher-? I think perhaps this unique to the individual adventure, is the best explanation for why * an organized religion approach* to the practice of Nichiren's Buddhism is unnecessary at best, and detrimental at worst.
It is due solely to Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin that I have the means to awaken to my own true nature, the ultimate realty , the true entity that permeates all life and all phenomena. THIS experience is enlightenment-- how one uses it, develops it, etc. is unique to the individual practitioner-- which is why we cannot judge the teaching or the practice by observing practitioners alone-- . It is only through our own faith and practice that we can realize the truth of the Lotus Sutra,
stav hatzJune 21, 2016 at 12:05 AM " Nichiren and Shakyamuni have gained my absolute trust based on my own experience chanting and studying their teachings." Thats what i am happy to hear Katie..experience.
Well but there is some discipline some process one has to follow till it becomes more constant and spontaneous; i will not push or insist on anything here , just to summarize what i intended to say and which i find important is for one to become what one have faith in and surrender gradually fully through ones awakening through the practice of that Truth one experiences and become embodiment of It in total transformation.
Hi Katie you said "if I knew the destination ahead of time, or had a firm grasp of the ultimate goal of my practice of Nichiren's Buddhism, I would not need to have faith.."
The ultimate goal is Self-Realization and in that possessing one is simultaneously situated in ones triple aspect of individual, universal and transcendent being knowing the secret will and intention of all that's taking place. In the Sanskrit it is called a Divine Lila, the whole existence is a Divine play of Consciousness and in the attainment of Full Self-Realization one knows the full intention of the manifestation and then takes part in it Fully Conscious.
Hi Stav ! It may be due to the compelling demands on my attention and sensibilities ( grand children, beloved pets, my garden, my evolving career as a nurse/human rights activist, my creative hobbies and love of dance-- to name a few); all that comprises the environment where I am constantly engaged with other living beings, is the focus of my quest for enlightenment -- By this I mean to convey that eloquently expressed, abstract and esoteric renderings of a *Divine play of consciousness* pale in comparison to the realizations I experience fully harmonizing with the True entity of all phenomena--via chanting daimoku, embracing the Lotus Sutra-- and expressing reverence for Shakyamuni and Nichiren by studying their teachings assiduously.
The practice of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism is not easy, and though I have acquired self discipline from an early age, by such things as ballet training and responsibility for the care of living creatures, I believe that the discipline required to develop a *mind of faith* is the most difficult-- or at least as difficult as reigning in a wild elephant!
My destination is really , always, *this moment*-- It does not have relevance beyond *now*-- though after 28 years of devotion to Nichiren's teachings and my consistent practice of chanting daimoku and reciting the Lotus Sutra, I find that I am far less fettered to the sufferings of birth and death than anyone I know-- and more passionate about using every moment-- to the fullest for the sake of an ever expanding group of *others*.
The supremacy of the Lotus Sutra has been noted by the most highly esteemed teachers preceding Nichiren- . We have discussed only a tiny fraction of the doctrinal and theoretical proof of the supremacy of the Lotus Sutra. I have shared a very brief overview of the profound actual proof I have experienced.
Ultimately the consistent practice of chanting, which is actually easy when compared to other practices, is fundamental to the severe difficulties that arise to challenge my *mind of faith*--
Perhaps there is nothing more difficult for the most serious minded and learned seekers of the way of our time, than to have pure faith in the teachings of one teacher. The Buddha understood this , no doubt-- leaving us the *good medicine*, myoho renge kyo , Shakyamuni alone can save and protect all living beings in this time when we have all acquired the karma to have lost our "true minds"!
Hi Katie, when we learn to embrace other religions in our lives and see the Divine variety of approaches and relationships then we will experience more of universality without feeling pale or abstract towards others experiences and expressions, I do recognize your way as one way of approach towards Truth but I see others as well, I can harmonize them in a greater synthesis.
There is no other teaching that equals the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren grasped this, I believe, and therefore was able to recognize Shakyamuni Buddha as the True and Eternal Buddha-- or perhaps he recognized Shakyamuni as the True Buddha and therefore believed his golden words , declaring the Lotus Sutra to be the highest teaching. I harmonize with the deep desire to save ALL living beings and appreciate every struggle and challenge in this regard , accepting as my guide, the many lives of Shakyamuni and Nichiren's lifelong devotion to propagating the True Buddha's teaching.
Having no desire for other *religious* experiences, I can embrace both the joys and sufferings of others, never *feeling* pale or abstract towards their experiences or expressions. Faith in the Lotus Sutra illuminates these expressions, many of which appear to be the result of deep longing for escape from the suffering in our saha world!
Faith in and practice of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra Buddhism is the ONLY way to attain perfect enlightenment . I see other ways for what they are; expressions of our human potential for self perfection. I felt this to be the basis for yours and Noel's discussion, dialogue, monologues and debates published here.
So, I agree that it is possible to experience our *universality*-- This accords with one of the precious jewels in the Lotus Sutra; "The Mutual Possession of The Ten Worlds". Why would you [or Noel] seek any teacher other than Shakyamuni,? He alone, shared the wonderful Law; the means for ALL living beings to attain Buddhahood? That is the highest degree of universality one can encounter!!
Is there any other teaching that fully explains life and all of its functions? Is there any other Buddha who claimed he alone could rescue and protect ALL living beings in the Latter Day of the Law?
Because I decided to participate in the discussion on this post, I finally got to the heart of my past and present disagreements with Noel. And this realization has caused me to deepen my faith in Nichiren's teachings even more--
Nichiren teaches that, Even though "they chant the daimoku, they destroy the heart of the Lotus Sutra"-- by acting in ways that do not accord with the intent of the Lotus Sutra, the golden words of the True Buddha.
You noted discrepancies between Noels statements about *the scriptures* and the content of the scriptures. Specifically,and based entirely on his own disclosure, Noel revealed that he has the capacity to perceive the "true entity of the mystic Law.. and the true aspect of all phenomena"-- I have posted references for him from Nichiren's writings regarding his error in this regard. I hope that he corrects his error, which is a potential that arose from your courageous engagement with him in this public forum.
AS MARK shared from Nichiren's teachings: "When a person’s offense is minor, admonishment is sometimes called for, but at other times it may be unnecessary, for there are those who may correct themselves without being told. Reprove a person for slander when necessary, so that you can forestall for both of you the consequences of an offense. Then, you should forgive that person. The point is that even minor slanders may lead to serious ones, and then the effects one must suffer would be far worse. This is [what Chang-an means when he writes], “One who rids the offender of evil is acting as his parent.”
I am the first to admit that my wisdom with regard to the whole of Buddhist thought and history is lacking. All of my contributions to this discussion are solely due to my faith in and practice of Nichiren's Buddhism. Not only is there no greater joy than chanting myho-renge-kyo, but there is no greater understanding of all worldly affairs of life and work, expressed through the practice of any other teaching.
And since THIS is the world we must transform, isn't *envisioning* the Divine just an escapist practice ? Experiencing the divine, wonderful Mystic Law in our lives and all life is both the means for this transformation and the benefit of practicing faith in the divine, wonderful Law!
Yes, chanting seems over simplistic -- even when one is told that Myoho-renge-kyo encompasses the entire Lotus Sutra and indeed ALL of life and its myriad functions, some still dismiss it a *childish theory*-- and claim to have superior capacities , and to have attained superior insight. Right there, or here, is the real challenge -- overcoming the arrogance of mind that is rampant in the 5th 500 years after the Buddha's passing-- exactly as Shakyamuni predicted.
Why not practice a teaching that is proven true; one that contains no falsehoods , or erroneous statements? It seems foolish to me to continue any other practice once one has heard the teachings in the Lotus.
A wise person, at least in my humble opinion, who is skeptical of the bold pronouncements in the Lotus Sutra, would begin to chant the daimoku, with the intent of refuting the Buddha's highest teaching-- BEFORE accepting any lesser teaching.
Hi Katie maybe for Noel what you say it can be applied since he represent your Buddhism; but for me I have my practice and I happy with my practice and the benefits from it; I joined or rather I was pulled in this blog because Noel put some of my emails which I send to him there and that's how it began and I stuck here ( and I have benefited )for the truth that Buddha doesn't decline; that was the main thing; of course through our discussions and from Marks few mails I realized that you dont accept any other path and teachings outside the lotus sutra and everyone who dont accept them go more or less to hell;
I dont need to change my practice to realize for example that as your scriptures and the one I mainly follow (and I say mainly not that I dont follow them fully but where I see in other religions the same universal truth I follow that as well) accept the same thing; and so I accept enlightenment in this present life, anyone can whether man or woman , academically educated or uneducated all can attaint that which they already possess, you say only through lotus sutra and only through Sakyamuni, It is more correct to say only through the true teachings whether they come from Sakyamuni or another, truth is truth no matter who spoke it and shown it with ones life; as I said before there are true teachings in other scriptures and you said in your humble admission that you dont know outside Nichiren Buddhism about other scriptures but then proudly and in an ignorance since you admit that you dont know you deny other scriptures; You have the right to state your faith and teachings for you as true but you have no right neither it is a scientific or logical to deny something which you have no knowledge of.
You may say you have faith simply in Nichiren's decision when he state there is not Highest truth outside Lotus Sutra and Sakyamuni;
And here then I will ask you what is the Truth and please dont say the lotus sutra just as a label; you said before the 3000 realm teachings; I have replied to you that these ideas or rather the truth of these ideas is too in the Vedanta as I told you about the 14worlds and 11 Consciousness and as I also mentioned that the figures differ because of adding more of lower and higher worlds and also of adding the universal in distinction from individual alaya and also from individual and universal and transcendent amala; the amala is simultaneously in this 3 poises as individual , universal and beyond both, beyond time and space. also the mutual possession of them and the 10 factors that is also there all these factors are known; about the mutual possession that is also there and as I told you it is even more so since it admits also influences from other dimensions which are part of the whole Cosmic existence; And if this sounds to esoteric then let it be; after all do you know the meaning of esoteric or exoteric , they are Greek words which is one of my spoken languages , esoteric means inner or internal and exoteric outer or external; so reality has the inner and the outer, the external and the internal realities and to speak of the whole you have to include the whole; and the whole process of spiritual life is to bring into harmony the inner and outer life. These are basically the main teachings of Nichiren Buddhism; and Nichiren encapsulated all this concept in the phrase which the first word is in Sanskrit Nam and the rest Japanese for the whole operation of the cosmos; this in Sansktit in Vedanta is encapsulated in one word OM which signifies the primordial sound containing all the fundamental consciousness and all the functions and manifestations in it; this sacred word has been chanted and is still chanted by millions all around the planet and it has the power to purify and lift the consciousness to its summit and transform the whole nature; You say envisioning the Divine is escapism, how can be envisioning or realizing the Divine escapism for the very realization of the Divine means realizing the whole so how can you or where to escape; if you mean to escape outside this earth to other places like the heavens described in the scriptures or the Parinirvana how it is described as complete extinction ( even this has different interpretations , some say extinction of ego ) of any individual formation, that then would not be the fulfilment of this world and its transformation would be impossible;
So the envisioning or realizing and manifesting the Divine would truly as I have faith and my teaching teach mean total transformation and that is the aim of the yoga or spiritual path I follow.
But while I follow it I know from experience and knowledge of other scriptures that that truth is also stated there and so I am glad and happy that others also aim at that and I see them as my brothers and sisters and not as adversaries; I see this in the teachings of other religions; but if one just looks superficially or just listen to the followers alone which they to dont know and are not interested to know about other religions they out of their ignorance too are thinking we only posses the highest and the truest truth; but it is not like that; I have seen and have read some of the lives and teachings of great religious persons and seen in their depth that they perceive the same universal truth. If you want to know something correctly you have to go deep into it yourself; if you say I dont need to ok but that only makes you understand your own teachings ( in your way ) without knowing about others; and the funny thing is that you speak of no escape but of transformation here on earth but how can you achieve that if you dont know the religious teachings of your fellow men ( and I assume that you are from Australia which is of many religions and cultures ) and your country men? You say also you will embrace the sufferings and joys of others but not their spiritual experiences; is not Christ's love or of some sincere Christians religious love and their relationship with the Divine of no concern of yours, or any other sincere practitioner who manifest divine love and wisdom in ones life no interest to know her/his spiritual joys and inspirational friendship? are not those who are in harmony with the Divine's Law true practitioners and our true well wishers? do they have to be under certain religious name but obviously you believe that since Nichiren only say the historical Sakyamuni Buddha is the only one who can protect and save all; Muslim preachers would tell you the same that only their Holy Koran can save you, or Christian preachers only through Jesus Christ the person can one be saved.
For the deeper practitioners these have different meaning , in the sense that the superficial take the outward meaning only without knowing the teachings the other knows the teachings and says it; but the one who truly knows the teachings will recognize the truth if it is universal in other scriptures as well and will acknowledge that that same universal truth Is the Only way which will protect you and save you.
And I am asking you Katie what is That Universal Truth of you religion which is above the others and what is the false or incorrect teachings of the other religions?
Hi to all here on the Eagle Peak, somehow I became involved here with Noel and in a way I am glad and that is because things have became more clear to me and Noel had and has the opportunity to correct his wrong views about his own Buddhism with your correction. Now it has become tiring, one can take the horse to the water or bring water to him but you cant make him drink; Thank you for all the exchange and if someone is from Sydney we could have a coffee one day. kriyaban111@hotmail.com Warm Greetings Stav x
Remaining true to the spirit of this discussion, where I feel that sharing teachings and perspectives have been mutually appreciated, I want to clarify what I see as the essential difference between our understandings.
"You have the right to state your faith and teachings for you as true but you have no right neither it is a scientific or logical to deny something which you have no knowledge of."
It is crucial to acknowledge that the statements regarding the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren are *theirs*, in other words, Shakyamuni declared that the Lotus Sutra was his highest teaching and that he alone, could *rescue and protect all living beings*. Nichiren's study of all of the sutras, treatises and commentaries led him to conclude that the Lotus Sutra surpassed all other teachings and that every word (character) was the Buddha's *mind* , which he, Nichiren sought exclusively, placing faith in Lotus Sutra, revering Shakyamuni and sharing the daimoku of the Lotus Sutra as the essential practice for our *time*. So, it is not ME who has who claimed, or is saying, that faith in the Lotus Sutra is the only way to attain Buddhahood, and that all other teachings lead to the hell of incessant suffering. It is ME saying I believe the words, the mind of the True Buddha, expressed as the Lotus Sutra. Why would I believe this Buddha and this teaching ? That is really the issue.
"You may say you have faith simply in Nichiren's decision when he state there is not Highest truth outside Lotus Sutra and Sakyamuni"
Again, Stav, Nichiren is *believing* what Shakyamuni himself declared. Nichiren decided to believe exactly what the Buddha said and taught. Based on my own experience chanting the daimoku as Nichiren taught, I , too have decided to believe *exactly* what the BUDDHA said and taught. this is the scientific method, the test-- replicating the experiment, validates the results.
"...as I said before there are true teachings in other scriptures and you said in your humble admission that you dont know outside Nichiren Buddhism about other scriptures but then proudly and in an ignorance since you admit that you dont know you deny other scriptures;"
You see, Stav, my first encounter with Buddhism was Nichiren's teachings. Only if I had formed doubts about the practice would I have sought other teachings. So, I am neither portraying ignorance or arrogance, but simply stating that I have found no cause to doubt Nichiren's teachings and the Lotus Sutra. I shared that I have had discussions , not unlike this one, with people who have different spiritual practices, beliefs, or adhere to the doctrines of major world religions. I don't view them, or you, as adversaries. I do find it is very difficult to distinguish between what one decides based on his/her own mind and choosing to believe the exact words, teachings of One Buddha. Very different matter than *interpreting* archaic writings on matters where one has to have a *blind* faith in the impossible.= Which, in my opinion is the case with all monotheistic religions. And ultimately that entails beliefs about death and the question of an after life. I don't assume an adversarial posture towards anyones "beliefs" ,I simply share what I have learned from Nichiren's teachings and, also what I have experienced with the death of loved ones.
Shakyamuni made predictions in the Lotus Sutra that are also crucial to understanding why I would *believe* this one Buddha. The most compelling, for me, is the state the world is in now, and more specifically the condition of the minds of the people-- which are, of course directly related. I have found many references in Nichiren's writings regarding how our present day conditions of the mind render us prone to errors in thought and perceptions. The practice of seated meditation, for instance, is not recommended by the Buddha for the Latter Day--and Nichiren focused on "hearing and reciting the sutra, specifically the daimoku". Faith is the means for attaining wisdom, fortified by study, but not the other way around.
"And I am asking you Katie what is That Universal Truth of you religion which is above the others and what is the false or incorrect teachings of the other religions? "
I would compare the mind of Shakyamuni Buddha to a crystal clear lake, and the minds of us common mortals, living in the Latter Day of the Law, are like a polluted stream. When I am thirsting for truth, I drink from the crystal clear lake--that is my religion.
Over time, 28 years to be exact, I believe I have made significant progress detoxifying my mind by consistently drinking the pure water of the Mystic Law.
I am not trying to make you drink the water I drink , I just want to be clear about my practice, especially that I am trying to be as clear as I can be regarding what it is and what it is based upon.
Once again, the declarations of the Buddha are what I believe, not my own *revelations of mind* or the opinions of others,who cannot substantiate their views with clear references from the scriptures, just as Nichiren did. So, that is the explanation for what I believe-- plain and simple.
I live in the U.S. in a small town just outside of Boston. I would love to visit Sydney Australia, some day, and I hope that when I do, we can meet for coffee. :-)
Thank you Katie for taking the time to reply my mail; In the way you see some things i kindly disagree; but I do appreciate your sincerity and your practice you do; everyone in their religion ( accept some and they will soon or later find their path and the teachings which appeal to them ) who follow sincerely ones path have to have faith in it; but faith also grows through practice which turns ultimately into a direct perception and realization where faith becomes a reality; take a Christian, or Muslim or Vedantist he/she truly believes that is the highest path for me just like you it is natural; but very few understand and I am not playing here some genius but me too, for me I do accept the Vedanta as the best but I do at the same time see and recognize others as well; I can see beauty, sacrifice and love and wisdom and power in Jesus Christ, also in Saints like Frances of Assisi; or if you have heard of Bede Griffith a Catholic monk who settled in India; or Shaym of Tabriz and Rumi; and others from India they are all a family I feel them as such : and in my opening prayer before practice they are always mentioned "saints ( which includes also Buddha and Bodhisattvas)and sages of all religions I bow to you all" . I see also in your Nichiren Buddhism so much truth and universality but also so much conflict ^_^. There will always be some varieties even among the same religion, just as they are in your path many sects, just like in Christianity etc; I agree that what you follow you see it as the best but don't deny the best that is seen by others. Vedanta is outside the Buddhist sutras and the vedic tradition don't call their Fully enlighten beings as Buddhas although they are, they call them by different names like Avatars or Bhagavan and other names.
Anyway you take care of your self and if you do come to Sydney let me know; keep my email.
In Boston Paramahansa Yogananda in 1920 attended the congress of world religions and spread the teachings of ancient India and established first centre there and then in other parts of US called the Self-Realization Fellowship. You would probably heard about him Katie, I practice the Kriya Yoga he taught and the chanting of OM. http://www.yogananda.com.au/gallery_py_life.html
To be more precise I practice a similar technique which was anciently used for opening the inner centres of consciousness together with chanting the OM ; Paramahansa Yogananda slightly modified the technique he taught in the western world.
Also a great soul Swami Vivekananda in 1893 he went to Chicago to take part in the world religious congress ( imagine at that time someone to speak to a Christian nation about the soul the essence of man is one with God the Essence of all and reincarnation ) and all became amazed at his speeches, they used to keep him last so that all would stay to listen all the speakers. He was the first in big scale to introduce the ancient Vedanta to the west. But when he went there at first he had no formal invitation and so because Boston was cheaper he went there till he find solution how to get access as a representative of Vedanta religion. So he met at Boston an university professor John Henry Wright from Harvard University and when the professor heard his teachings he immediately said you should speak at the congress and Vivekananda said I don't have officially the credentials , when the professor heard this he said "To ask for your credentials is like asking the sun to state its right to shine in the heavens."[3] This is his speech 1983 in Chicago ( it is not his voice there was not recording available at that time but it well made as he spoke it ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQekcwOZ8FU
I do not contemplate the nine consciousnesses, nor would I employ my wisdom derived from faith to seek to directly perceive the nine consciousnesses because Nichiren has specifically addressed this as worthless endeavor in The Latter Day. Contemplating the *teachings* for our Time, is chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo with a mind of faith.
here you seem to say that one no need to have any realization of what the "nam moyho renge kyo" stands for which is the whole concept of 3000 realms in single moment of life with all its teachings; one just need to chant and remain ignorant of that and have only faith in the chanting without any actual realization..? how can that be since with the practice of chanting the very truth which is laid in that seed mantra formula of "nam myoho renge kyo" has to be revealed and realized how can you say "the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest" and then claim ignorance and as not important one to be realized of ones Nature with its functions 9 consciousness and the whole concept of 3000 realms? You sound here bit like Christians who say just have faith and you will be saved though someone elses grace without any personal realization. Is it not the very teachings of Buddhism compare to Theistic religions that through your own realization ( no doubt with the help of true teachings and practice ) will you become free and Enlighten.?
Also it is like te Pure land Buddhism in chich they teach that the faithfull will be taken to a heaven and there will atain the full realization; just like Christians too believe that after death they will become perfect in a moment; but that goes against the very teachings when it is said here in this very life before death one can become a Buddha..one cannot become a Buddha simply because one is chanting without the full realization of the meaning of what one chants, of the teachings one follows , of the direct experience as the Sakyamuni has of the Universe and all the Truths contained in it!
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?" ( "The Doctrine of 3,000 Realms in a single Moment of Life")
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood SOLELY through the contemplation of the mind" i agree absolutely with you and this statement; there are very very rare cases who are able to go deed into their True nature of Being and realize directly all the Truths! That is why it is rightly stated that one cannot SOLELY through the contemplation of the mind attain Buddhahood; one has to have the True teachings; You spoke before of hearing the True Teahings which you belive only the Lotus Sutra posses, but hearing is also reading, also speaking the teachings, preaching, reciting or singing or chanting is all hrearing. But then one has to think of the things or teachings heard and deeply contemplate on them, that is also meditation. It seems it is spoken of solely meditating in ones mind without true teachings!
Katie you know of these declarations like, the Quran is the only pure scripture which is not distorted and only this book contains the pure teachings; or only through Jesus one can be saved and the quote " i am the way and the Truth and no one comes to the Father except through me" .. I personally dont believe these statements in the way they simply presented and tought ( though i believe them in a deeper significance and Truth ) and i think you obviously dont either; but when it comes to your teachings you seem to state exactly that! That is why i love Vedanta because there is no such an exclusive claim! And frankly speaking the Muslims, the Christians, the Hindus and the other Great Buddhist paths they will not disapear from this earth' the islam like Christianity contains low and high teachings as well, but because of the mentality of the peoples taught then the emphasis is given primerily to rules and morality; but there are high teachings as well; for example to lower conscious people Jesus advise to pray to God who is in Heaven, to others who asked him show us the Kingdom of Heaven he replied " the kingdom of heaven is not like that as to show here it is or there it is, for the Kingdom of Heaven is within you" or more higher declaration me and my Father ARE ONE and as i will be sitted in His Throne you will be sitted in us..etc ( these are High truths some spoken through parabels some more directly. This is what i meant by Universal religion that through all this practice and through the elevation of the earth consciousness and its people in general there will come a time through all the great faiths and their teachings and help which all will benifit and share gradually because no man or religion is an island in itself, we all grow together and so a time will come where all the great religions which will remain will embrace the highest teachings from their own religions and they will be interpreted in the light of their evolving and growing consciousness; the lesser and relative teachings of old times and circumstances will be replaced and emphasised with highest and more of Eternal Truths of Teachings. We are all here to grow and help each other and i firmly believe that the different aspects and approaches of other paths will ramain but the teachings will be interprited in a higher light of consciousness as men grows and evolves more spiritualy.
Since Katie has appeared to have run out of words for now (that I thought could never happen) I'll just pop this in, in hope that others may join in on the compassionate conversion discussion with Stavros as he has expressed that he is interested in others opinions about Nichiren Buddhism
Nichiren Quotes from; "The Complete and Final Teaching on Perfect Enlightenment Sutra declares, “The beginningless illusions and ignorance that beset all living beings are all produced by the perfectly enlightened mind of the Thus Come Ones.”
The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai in his Great Concentration and Insight states, “Ignorance or illusions are in themselves enlightenment to the essential nature of phenomena. But due to the influence of delusions, enlightenment changes into ignorance.”
The Great Teacher Miao-lo comments on this as follows: “Enlightenment has no separate entity but completely depends upon ignorance; and ignorance has no separate entity but completely depends upon enlightenment.”
Ignorance is a state of delusion that must be cut off, whereas enlightenment is the state that one must manifest. How then can we say that they are a single entity? To resolve doubts on this point, one should have a clear grasp of the passages that have been quoted here." - The Entity of the Mystic Law
Stavros; "The Perfectly Enlightenment Mind is the Ground of Being from which all comes and with which the Thus Come Ones are in oneness; It is unthinkable and it goes against the Very nature of compassion and enlightenment for those in Stage of Buddhahood or even a Bodhisattva to use their Nirmanakaya and Sabhogakaya being to create illusions and ignorance in the world and for others or to misuse their Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya attainment and choose to plunge again into delusion of ignorance to cause more burden on others and on themselves ; the very things through their very birth they came to dispel which is the ignorance and illusion in the world.
So this statement can only be directed to the Original Ground Being, the Brahman , the Godhead of the Theistic paths which states also in the Bible this but many Christians overlook this " King James Bible "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. " Isaiah 45.7 . , Or from the Siva Siddhanta Tradition it is stated that Siva creates, maintains, destroys . reveals and conceals His 5 functions.
And of course in the Vedanta teachings too the Divine manifest these two aspects. Ultimately it is The Ultimate Perfectly Enlighten Eternal Ground Reality which manifests and generates all the manifestations including the ignorance and the illusive appearance through a succession of unfoldment."
Mark, Shinkei, Mrs Higgins, Greg, Mudpie boy and Who ever (independent practicioners, Nichiren Buddhists sects - What's your opinions on these statements from Vedanta and Nichiren Buddhism in which some appear to be diametrically opposed
"The Ultimate Perfectly Enlighten Eternal Ground Reality which manifests and generates all the manifestations including the ignorance and the illusive appearance through a succession of unfoldment."
“The beginningless illusions and ignorance that beset all living beings are all produced by the perfectly enlightened mind of the Thus Come Ones.”
Since you involved me here then I may say yes there are differences which have to clearly distinguished as I previously replied to you:
"So fundamentally speaking That True Entity and True Nature of Being will manifest all the different planes and levels of Consciousness through gradual or successive unfoldment again and again in different ways but that is not you , me or I; thats why the seers or Buddhas they dont say true I or real Me because the moment you say that there is a smell and shadow of ego that is why they say That or the Suchness because from the experience it is felt like that as That and in that experience as (an example of his personal experience which you can verify from his testimony) Sri Aurobindo also stated as well no pure i neither any idea of true self was felt, there were no thoughts at all in that Ground of being state only the awareness of That and he ( said although he didnt think it at that time since it was completely beyond any concept of mental mind) was simply That and That was the only awareness aware of That ( and of course of all the formations but with different significance as seen from ordinary mind ).
So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate "You" so to speak than yes it is 'You' or more precisely That who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation.
Hi to all here on the Eagle Peak, somehow I became involved here with Noel and in a way I am glad and that is because things have became more clear to me and Noel had and has the opportunity to correct his wrong views about his own Buddhism with your correction. Now it has become tiring, one can take the horse to the water or bring water to him but you cant make him drink; Thank you for all the exchange and if someone is from Sydney we could have a coffee one day. kriyaban111@hotmail.com Warm Greetings Stav x
Thanks Stavros, I've underestimated you and the Vendanta masters and their traditions. After all they are all part of the way and have their relevance for their time. I've needed something like this to bring me back into place, only by you coming onto the blog could I start to see what has happened to me through my interaction with other Nichiren Buddhists with peculiar persuasions of interpretation of which I am no doubted considered to be one
These people here on Eagle Peak haven't been able to correct my views on this one just like you haven't because my views are not wrong in the first place as much as that would please your belief system that endeavours to make extinct Stavro's ever changing individual continuation which is at odds with the ever changing individual aspect of alaya consciousness throughout the 3 existences of the eternal past present and future existence that are used to indicate all of time, from the eternal past, through the present, through the eternal future. These three aspects of the eternity of life are linked inseparably by the law of cause and effect.
Nichiren never said that there will be an end to rebirth but rather better conditions in future lives
The present day SGI that I have been waring with over the past are in agreement with Vedanta and have a unity ticket on this one. Which is the extinction of the eternal ever changing individual continuation of the individual aspect of the Alaya consciousness throughout the 3 existences in favour of the non dual Absolute (Amala Consciousness) in isolation and devoid of other consciousness's Thanks for making this clear
The qualities of Buddha nature are infinite compassion, inexhaustible life force (non tiring), boundless wisdom and courage
Our Ground of Being can be likened to That which is beginingless and with which the Thus Come Ones are in oneness and are indistinguishable.
Dharma Body, Reward Body, Manifest body between common mortals and Buddhas are the same in structure except that a Buddhas reward and manifest body are enlightened. There is nothing fixed or alien about this
The common mortals Reward and Manifest bodies have glimpses of enlightenment compared to a fully cultivated Buddha whose dominant state of the ten worlds is Buddha. eg Shakyamuni
The Dharma body is the absolute in the sense that it is unchanging like the Amala consciousness and is inseparable and exists simultaneously with other consciousness's unlike Vedanta and the SGI
If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured through eternity and attain supreme enlightenment in this lifetime, you must awaken to the mystic truth which has always been within your life. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth within you. Myoho-renge-kyo is the king of sutras, flawless in both letter and principle. Its words are the reality of life, and the reality of life is the Mystic Law (Myoho). It is called the Mystic Law because it explains the mutually inclusive relationship of life and all phenomena. That is why this sutra is the wisdom of all Buddhas.
Life at each moment encompasses both body and spirit and both self and environment of all sentient beings in every condition of life1, as well as insentient beings -- plants, sky and earth, on down to the most minute particles of dust. Life at each moment permeates the universe and is revealed in all phenomena. One awakened to this truth himself embodies this relationship. However, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but some inferior teaching. "Inferior teachings" means those other than this sutra, which are all provisional and transient. No provisional teaching leads directly to enlightenment, and without the direct path to enlightenment you cannot attain Buddhahood, even if you practice lifetime after lifetime for countless aeons. Attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime is then impossible. Therefore, when you chant the Mystic Law and recite the Lotus Sutra, you must summon up deep conviction that Myoho-renge-kyo is your life itself.
You must never seek any of Shakyamuni's teachings or the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the universe outside yourself. Your mastery of the Buddhist teachings will not relieve you of mortal sufferings in the least unless you perceive the nature of your own life. If you seek enlightenment outside yourself, any discipline or good deed will be meaningless. For example, a poor man cannot earn a penny just by counting his neighbor's wealth, even if he does so night and day. That is why Miao-lo states, "Unless one perceives the nature of his life, he cannot eradicate his evil karma." He means here that unless one perceives the nature of his life, his practice will become an endless, painful austerity. Miao-lo therefore condemns such students of Buddhism as non-Buddhist. He refers to the passage in the Maka Shikan, "Although they study Buddhism, their views revert to those of non-Buddhists."
Whether you chant the Buddha's name3, recite the sutra or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits in your life. With this conviction you should put your faith into practice. For example, the Jomyo Sutra says the Buddha's enlightenment is to be found in human life, thus showing that common mortals can attain Buddhahood and that the sufferings of birth and death can be transformed into nirvana. It further states that if the minds of the people are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds.
It is the same with a Buddha and a common mortal. While deluded, one is called a common mortal, but once enlightened, he is called a Buddha. Even a tarnished mirror will shine like a jewel if it is polished. A mind which presently is clouded by illusions originating from the innate darkness of life is like a tarnished mirror, but once it is polished it will become clear, reflecting the enlightenment of immutable truth. Arouse deep faith and polish your mirror night and day. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
What then does myo signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our lives from moment to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend nor words express. When you look into your own mind at any moment, you perceive neither color nor form to verify that it exists. Yet you still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur to you. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the reality of all things. Myo is the name given to the mystic nature of life, and ho to its manifestations.
Renge, the lotus flower, symbolizes the wonder of this Law. Once you realize that your own life is the Mystic Law, you will realize that so are the lives of all others. That realization is the mystic kyo, or sutra. It is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our minds, from which spring both good and evil, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law. If you have deep faith in this truth and chant Myoho-renge-kyo, you are certain to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime.
That is why the sutra states, "After my death, you must embrace this sutra. Those who do so shall travel the straight road to Buddhahood." Never doubt in the slightest, but keep your faith and attain enlightenment in this lifetime. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
Noel, >>the passage in the Maka Shikan, "Although they study Buddhism, their views revert to those of non-Buddhists."
>>refers to you, Noel-- disregarding whichever sutra passages and writings of Nichiren that don't suit you- believing your mind itself, all by itself IS BUDDHA. >"
Your good friend, stav, has noted in detail how you diverge from the teachings of Nichiren and shakyamuni. How amazing and compassionate was his attempt to convert you to the teachings you claim to uphold?? A truly praise worthy attempt, in my opinion!!
"Because they turn their backs on their Buddha nature, the Thus Come One of the Dharma body ...[they] cannot be called entities of Myoho-renge-kyo"- that's YOU, Noel --
So, what you are perceiving and calling *revelations* are just delusions from your befuddled state, of mind.
You are not alone in assuming you are *already* Buddha via this Gosho -- [SGI/NST & Nichiren -shu make arrogant assumptions and slander in the same manner that you employ]
Mark clarified that the *questionable* status of "On Attaining Buddhahood..." is due to the timing of the writing- very early- and bearing the influence of Nichiren's Tendai schooling. The Tendai school. likewise noted by Nichiren to have been under the influence of the workings of the king devil, AKA Zen doctrines, is one of the more difficult schools to expose---
However, Noel, if you keep reading Nichiren's writings, your error will become clear to you . If you chant with the icihinen to embrace , [rather than *re-write* the Lotus Sutra via misinterpretations of Nichiren's writings] you will purify your senses...
By the way Noel in case of your mind fluctuations just remind you in this closing mail that you have been presented with the correct teachings that Buddhas don't retrograde and your wrong conceptions and believes have been defeated and that is the reason why no further discussion is taking place on that not because of fear of your profound realization and challenge but simply of being tired repeating the same things. THE END
Stavros;"The liberated reaching a stage of maturity several option are open to it depends of its line of progress and realization different possibilities presenting themselves at the same time for developed souls such as, - merger back, lingering for eternity enjoying the difference of unity, returning as a Master who can help, engaging with creation as a realized being, participating in the new adventure of transformation into eternity without individual end etc etc. "
"So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate "You" so to speak than yes it is 'You' or more precisely That who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation."
So you may return as a master for all eternity without an individual end that has no karmic individual continuation from the Stavros of this life. So this is what you mean by "And for your information as I said many times before the path which I follow is the last of eternal individual progression."
Or maybe you will merge back as a rock enjoying the differences as you have the habit of doing
Or engaging with creation as a realized being, participating in the new adventure of transformation into eternity without individual end, like what I'm doing now
"By the way Noel in case of your mind fluctuations just remind you in this closing mail that you have been presented with the correct teachings that Buddhas don't retrograde and your wrong conceptions and believes have been defeated"
Thank you for reiterating this, Stav!
" and that is the reason why no further discussion is taking place on that not because of fear of your profound realization and challenge "
Yes, I agree!
"but simply of being tired repeating the same things."
that Noel refuses to acknowledge...
It is wise, I agree-- to END this discussion, since the tenor of Noel's discourse has become like the buzzzzzing sound of a frenzied gadfly.
I just want to end by saying,
It has truly been fortunate for me to encounter you ,Stav-
I acknowledge what has been said but don't agree with some concepts that i consider to be dysfunctional incoherent nonsensical outlooks that like minded people like you both agree on and reiforce oneanothers delusions
wow! lots of work.........good job.
ReplyDeletei got tired just scrolling.
Thinking about this is also tiring at time Greg but I cant walk away from it. I think this is the crux of the matter it will save you much scrolling 'cheers'
DeleteMark's puts forward his case for non-retrogression of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas based on Gosho and Lotus Sutra and is in agreement with Katie and Stavros that Buddhas do not retrogress.
"...one who helps eradicate slander of the Law will ascend to the state from which there can be no retrogression. Thus the passage tells us that the monk Realization of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Kāshyapa, and that King Possessor of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Shakyamuni."
and
The sutra states, “Those persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in various Buddha lands, constantly reborn in company with their teachers,”6 and “If one stays close to the teachers of the Law, one will speedily gain the bodhisattva way. By following and learning from these p.748teachers one will see Buddhas as numerous as Ganges sands.”7 A commentary says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”8 Another commentary says, “In the beginning one followed this Buddha or bodhisattva and formed a bond with him, and so it will be through this Buddha or bodhisattva that one will attain one’s goal.”9 Above all, be sure to follow your original teacher so that you are able to attain Buddhahood. Shakyamuni Buddha is the original teacher for all people, and moreover, he is endowed with the virtues of sovereign and parent. Because I have expounded this teaching, I have been exiled and almost killed. As the saying goes, “Good advice grates on the ear.” But still I am not discouraged. The Lotus Sutra is like the seed, the Buddha like the sower, and the people like the field. If you deviate from these principles, not even I can save you in your next life.'
and
The “Life Span” chapter says, “I am the father of this world because I cure my deranged sons.”7 The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.... Just as all the hundred rivers flow into the sea, so is one drawn by one’s connection with the Buddha and born in company with the Buddha.”
and
"Answer: When the Buddha was in the world and was seated beneath the bodhi tree, he gauged the capacities of the people of his time. He perceived that if he preached the Lotus Sutra immediately, then people would slander it and would fall into the evil paths. If he waited for forty and more years before preaching it, however, they would not slander it, but instead would advance to the first of the ten stages of security, where there is no more retrogression, and would continue to advance until they had reached the stage of perfect enlightenment. But he also realized that, in the muddy age of the Latter Day of the Law, the capacities of the people would be such that not one person in ten thousand would be capable of reaching the first of the ten stages of security. Likewise he knew that those who would preach the teachings in that time, not being Buddhas, would have great difficulty correctly gauging the capacities of the people. Therefore the Buddha gave permission for such persons to preach the Lotus Sutra from the very beginning so that people could establish some connection with the sutra, whether it was one of rejection or of acceptance."
“Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.”
“I am the only person”—
Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”
cont...
Mark;" I believe that since even Bodhisattvas can reach the stage of non-retrogression, Buddhas do not retrogress.
DeleteThe question remains: Are we Buddhas? if so we will never retrogress. Should one abandon the Lotus Sutra, one is neither a Bodhisattva nor Buddha and rapidly retrogresses."
Noel; I believe that when one reaches the stage where there is no retrogression means that when we are at the stage of being at one with the Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One Musa Sanjin Buddha there will be no retrogression.
Since we and all Bodhisattvas an Buddhas (historical Shakyamuni Buddha) throughout the multiverse are only temporary at one with the Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One at different durations throughout eternity either in a fully cultivated form or momentarily as in this life
But when one abandons, doubts the correct understanding of the Lotus Sutra or slights the true Votary of the Lotus Sutra we will rapidly retrogress.
Only while believing the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren's teachings can one remain at one with the Trikāya, triple body of enlightenment , Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One, Musa Sanjin Buddha, where there is no retrogression.
WARNING: esoteric crap--- ahead!!!
Delete"Only while believing the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren's teachings can one remain at one with the Trikāya, triple body of enlightenment , Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One, Musa Sanjin Buddha, where there is no retrogression."
Noel's TEACHINGS !!!
~Katie
A bit bit rich for coming from an infant who thinks they are Nichirens official spokeswoman yet has failed to grasp the basics of Nichiren Buddhism
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteNoel--
DeleteAll of my comments here address the BASICS of Nichiren Buddhism. Where specifically are my errors?
~Katie
Can you enter the words 3 bodied Tathagata eetc into the Eagle peach search bar for starters thanks Mrs Higgins
DeleteNo, Noel, I am not going to search *Eagle peach* or *Eagle Peak* for your terms. But I, I will repeat my request that you provide support for your specific claim, that I am :
Delete" an infant who thinks they are Nichirens official spokeswoman yet has failed to grasp the basics of Nichiren Buddhism."
The support for your claim must come from your own search of Nichiren's writings. Nowhere else do we find the basics for the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin. - I had assumed you had grasped that much.
Please do not share your personal revelations of the mind in response, as, again, your asserting that your revelations are *teachings* is exactly what I have called you out on.
~Katie
Please do your homework Mrs Higgins
DeletePlease do your homework Mrs Higgins
Delete"They believe that since all vehicles are opened up and incorporated in the one vehicle of Buddhahood,no teaching is superior or inferior, shallow or profound, but all are equal to the Lotus Sutra. Hence the belief that chanting the Nembutsu, embracing the True Word teaching, *praticing Zen meditation*[revelations of the mind], or *professing and reciting any sutra* or the name of any Buddha [*, Musa Sanjin Buddha*], or bodhisattva equals following the Lotus Sutra. "On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings"-( content inside [ ] is mine)
DeleteNichiren continues (WND 1,p.393)
"BUT I INSIST THAT THIS IS WRONG. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN PRACTICING THE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS IS TO FOLLOW AND UPHOLD THE BUDDHA'S GOLDEN WORDS, NOT THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS."
" Hence the sutra states: 'If there are good men or good women who...believe and revere it with pure hearts and harbor no doubts or perplexities, they will never fall into hell, or the realm of angry spirits or of beasts, but will be born in the presence of the Buddha's of the ten directions.' One should have complete faith in the Lotus Sutra and look forward to being born in the presence of the Buddha's in one's next life." ("Embracing the Lotus Sutra")
~Katie
"...Shakyamuni Buddha, within our minds, is an ancient Buddha without beginning, manifesting Himself in three bodies and attained Buddhahood n the eternal past......(ibid. P.94)
Delete"...the Bodhisattvas (who sprang from underneath the ground), as described in the 15th chapter, are followers of the Original Buddha Shakaymuni who resides within our minds."(p.94)
"Shakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will he be born in the future. He exists forever, throughout the past, present and future."
The 3 body tathagatta is beyond gender and has never died in the past, nor will be born in the future and exists forever, throughout the past, present and future
The individual Shakyamuni has died in the past and will be born in the future and exists forever, throughout the past, present and future as an ever changing individual
I feel the term "eternal Shakyamuni Buddha" is easily misunderstood as an individual who's reward body has always been at one with Thus Come One 3 body tathagatta.
The term 'Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha' refers to the historical buddha Shakyamuni who became one with the 3 body tathagatta at a point in time during the eternal past and will remain in this state until a point in time in the eternal future is more to the point ...lets be clear about this as the term Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha can create so much confusion if not understood in simple terms as what has been given just now!
For your perusal Mrs Higgins
DeleteShowing results for “ without beginning or end body dharma reward manifest ”
1601 Results Found
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/
I have always agreed that all 3 bodies (3 truths) are without beginning and end. The common mortal has 3 bodies ( 3 truths) like the 3 bodied Tathagatta but the differences lies in the reward body and manifest body
The state of the reward and manifest body of the common mortal is in a constant state of flux.
The Dharma body of the common mortal is at same state of perfect harmonious equilibrium as 3 bodied Tathagata Thus come one
Thus Come One the 3 bodied Tathagata body's are already in an eternal state of perfect harmonious equilibrium
Common mortals such as Shakyamuni and Nichiren experienced oneness with Thus Come One through cultivation in their past lives
Common mortals possess the mutual possession of the 10 worlds can experience oneness with Thus Come One 3 bodied Tathagata through cultivation; faith, study and practice on a temporary to a more permanent basis depending on our practice. Nichiren makes this accessible by inscription of the 10 world Gohonzon that is the simultaneity of cause and effect which means the result of what we desire to achieve 'Enlightenment" is already inherent in the process of the correct faith, study and practice
Once we are on this path of realisation and understanding we are no longer ordinary common mortals as such but become extraordinary common mortals that are becoming more Buddha like.
Special thanks to all the Buddas, Bodhisattvas, Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, Nichiren Daishonin and their votaries for making possible for those of us who have in the past, are at the moment and will suffer in the future in this Dark Age of Mappo for the hope that has been given unto us
correction - Showing results for “ without beginning or end body dharma reward manifest ” 3900 Results Found
Delete"The adherents of the Precepts school do violence to the precepts that exceeds even the devastation of a crumbling mountain or a flooding river. Far from attaining Buddhahood, they will not even be reborn in the world of human or heavenly beings.
The Great Teacher Miao-lo states, “If one observes but a single precept, one will be born as a human being. But if one breaks even a single precept, one will instead fall into the three evil paths.”34 Who among Ninsho’s followers in the Precepts school embraces even one of the prohibitions set forth in the Observance of the Precepts Sutra, the Meditation on the Correct Teaching Sutra, and other sutras, or truly observes the rules of discipline expounded in the Hinayana and Mahayana sutras, such as the Āgama?
Without doubt they are all destined to “fall into the three evil paths,” or even sink into the hell of incessant suffering. How pitiful they are! You should tell them so and reproach them by citing the “Treasure Tower” chapter’s explanation of what “observing the precepts and practicing [the rules of discipline]”35 truly means. Then, pausing briefly, tell them that the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the heart of the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, contain the benefit amassed through the countless practices and meritorious deeds of all Buddhas throughout the three existences.
Then, how can these five characters not include the benefits obtained by observing all of the Buddhas’ precepts? Once the practitioner embraces this perfectly endowed wonderful precept, he cannot break it, even if he should try. It is therefore called the precept of the diamond chalice.36 ****Only by observing this wonderful precept have the Buddhas of the three existences become Buddhas endowed with the three bodies—the Dharma body, the reward body, and the manifested body, which are each without beginning or end.***The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai wrote of this, “In the various teachings, he [the Buddha] kept this secret and did not transmit it.”37 Now in the Latter Day of the Law, any person—whether wise or ignorant, priest or lay believer, or of high or low position—who embraces Myoho-renge-kyo and practices it in accordance with the Buddha’s teaching, cannot fail to gain the fruit of Buddhahood.
For precisely this reason, in reference to the votary of the Lotus Sutra in the impure and evil age after the Buddha’s passing, the sutra declares, “Such a person assuredly and without doubt will attain the Buddha way.”38 On the other hand, those who practice the provisional teachings against the admonition of Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions will definitely fall into the hell of incessant suffering.
Now that so wondrous a precept has been revealed, none of the precepts expounded in the pre-Lotus Sutra teachings or in the theoretical teaching have the slightest power to benefit people. Since they provide not the slightest benefit, it is totally useless to observe them, even for a single day.
"I feel the term "eternal Shakyamuni Buddha" is easily misunderstood as an individual who's reward body has always been at one with Thus Come One 3 body tathagatta. "
DeleteYour *feeling* is not teaching, Noel.
"The term 'Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha' refers to the historical buddha Shakyamuni who became one with the 3 body tathagatta at a point in time during the eternal past and will remain in this state until a point in time in the eternal future is more to the point ...lets be clear about this as the term Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha can create so much confusion if not understood in simple terms as what has been given just now!"
I accept Nichiren's reference to The Eternal Buddha, Shakyamuni.I an not the least bit confused. You are *adding* your own *common mortal* reasoning. That's where the confusion begins...
"Common mortals such as Shakyamuni and Nichiren experienced oneness with Thus Come One through cultivation in their past lives."
Please cite the Gosho passage, or passage from the Lotus Sutra that supports this statement. Unless I have missed it, Nichiren does not refer to his having experienced this "oneness with the Thus Come One" in his *past lives*.
"Common mortals possess the mutual possession of the 10 worlds can experience oneness with Thus Come One 3 bodied Tathagata through cultivation; faith, study and practice on a temporary to a more permanent basis depending on our practice. Nichiren makes this accessible by inscription of the 10 world Gohonzon that is the simultaneity of cause and effect which means the result of what we desire to achieve 'Enlightenment" is already inherent in the process of the correct faith, study and practice."
Again, this explanation of *experiencing oneness with the Thus Come One" is not taught by Nichiren. Here is what Nichiren himself wrote to the lay nun Myoshin (1275) "On Upholding Faith in the Gohonzon"
"I am entrusting you with a Gohonzon for the protection of your young child. This Gohonzon is the essence of the Lotus sutra and the eye of all the scriptures. It is like the sun and the moon in the heavens, a great ruler on earth, the heart in a human being, the wish-grating jewel among treasures and the pillar of a house.
When we have this mandala with us, it is a rule that all the buddhas and gods will gather around and watch over us, protecting us like a shadow day and night, just as warriors guard their ruler, as parents love their children, as fish rely on water, as trees and grasses crave rain, and as birds depend on trees. You must trust in it with all your heart."
I accept, believe and put my faith and trust in The Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's writings. I don't accept the opinions of others or believe in pronouncements made in the absence of clear scriptural references.
~Katie
Posting your comment and my response from another recent post :
DeleteNOEL: ""The ignorance that comes from wrong thoughts and ideas
lies on the behalf of others because they have not yet the capacity to percive the true entity of the mystic law..and the true aspect of all phenomena because There is something fundamentally wrong about their interpretation in how they understand the teachings of Nichiren and Shakyamuni "
ME; Noel,By what means have you perceived the true entity of the mystic law-- and the true aspect of all phenomena ?
In, "The Correct Method Of Contemplation" (1274- also known as "Determining the Similarities and differences between the Lotus Sutra and the Teaching of Concentration and Insight", [addressed to Sairen-bo, a learned priest formally of the Tendai school.] Nichiren discusses the influence of Zen school on the priests of the Tendai school at Mount Hiei. What you claim as a capacity you have attained bears a striking similarity to the "one Law of Zen"- "By observing his Law, one may see into one's true nature and gain enlightenment"- then Nichiren states :"And it is because persons of our time put faith in such great SLANDERS of the Law as these, the invention of the heavenly devil, that they act as they do."
I would be interested in your interpretation of this Gosho. To me, it is a clear explanation of the errors with regard to T'ien-t'ai's practice of *concentration and insight* committed by the Zen school, that influenced the Tendai priests of Nichiren's time and caused them to commit "great slanders of the Law".
Nichiren points out that T'ien-t'ai's was a practice of personal enlightenment and should be regarded as a *provisional* teaching, intended for people of the Middle Day of the Law who lacked the capacity to directly grasp the wonderful Law of the Lotus Sutra.--The practice for our time is chanting the daimoku, as Nichiren taught NOT contemplation and insight via meditation...
Nichiren says that the doctrines embraced and studied by these Tendai priests "are based upon the distorted views of Bodhidarma and the falsehoods of Shan-wu-wei" AND "If they were to abide by the interpretations and commentaries of T'ien-t'ai and Dengyo, then they would understand that the secret Law, realized within their own minds is that expressed in the one word myoho, or wonderful Law, and nothing else."
IF, you are claiming to have a superior capacity, which I am assuming is the result of some type of meditation that you practice; that you are directly perceiving what those of us who *only* chant the daimoku have not attained, then are you not, in effect, claiming that a Zen doctrine is superior to the Lotus Sutra. ?
*** Perhaps, Noel your referencing "On Attaining Buddhahood..." is a clue to your confusion about Nicheren's actual teaching?? Recall that that Mark described this Gosho like this: (further down on this thread)
MARK: "Regarding the Gosho On Attaining Buddhaahood In Thiis Very Body, i believe is a genuine Gosho but it should be pointed out that it falls in the category of "early writing" where Nichiren had not completely shed the remnants of his training in Tendai original enlightenment thought."
Starting to understand your confusion...
~Katie
continue...
ON this other post,"A Passage For Anonymous"- you assert the reason for your differing interpretations of Nichiren's and Shakyamuni's teachings by saying>
DeleteNOEL:"The ignorance that comes from wrong thoughts and ideas
lies on the behalf of others [katie, greg, mark--]because they have not yet the capacity to percive the true entity of the mystic law..and the true aspect of all phenomena"--AND YOU HAVE??
I call attention again, to an assertion you appear to be making regarding your "contemplation and insight"--
Is this Nichiren Shu doctrine?
By also claiming that yours is the correct, or again, *superior* interpretation of the writings of Nichiren and Shakyamuni's Lotus Sutra, or rather that there is something fundamentally wrong about how we understand these teachings, aren't you expressing a *revelation of your own mind* and claiming it surpasses the very clear, consistent and detailed teachings of Nichiren?
You may believe you are right making these bold and somewhat provocative assertions of your superior capacity, but after studying this 12 page Gosho , I believe the explanation for your *behavior* is related to errors Nichiren identified as the cause for slandering the wonderful Law.
Yikes!!!
~Katie
Noel's presentation of Buddhiam and his understanding of it could not convert any reasonable person it lacks clear inside; he is talking of highest supposed teachings which he represents and he sends these on this Blog and then denies them as inferior the very teachings which send as evidence and which represent his Buddhism ( like the statetement of the world of Buddhahood and the "extinction" of Buddha which Noel send me as his Buddhism claming they are inferior teachings; well then why then you teach them and are part of your main teachings like supreme example the world of Buddhahood.?) and which you all follows; when a person presents his teachings from ones scriptures he is suppose to have faith in them; what is the use presenting something as your teachings if you dont beleive in them; what i have presented i believe in that; so Noel should convert himself first in his own teachings before trying converting others, because without one having clear understanding himself of ones scriptures and faith in the authors who wrote them he is just enduping being confused and also prone to mislead others!
ReplyDeleteBuddhahood: Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, WE CAN RESOLVE HARMONIOUSLY WHAT APPEAR FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE NINE WORLDS TO BE INSOLUBBLE CONTRADICTIONS. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a TRUE SELF, PERFECT FREEDOM from KARMIK BONDS THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!!.. , a LIFE PURIFIED OF ILLUSION, and ABSOLUTE HAPPINESS!!.
Your scripture doesn't say that the individual who have attain full Buddhahood will become again deluded and enter the lower forms of life on the contrary it seems to state that it will be extinct; this is what you send me " The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfil four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the Buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfil these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
YOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE
YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE.
ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
You mistake the state of Buddhahood for an individual who becomes Buddha for ever
Deleteyou need to get busy with your crayons as Katie suggested so you can understand the concept of ichinen sanzen which would be a major milestone in your spiritual evolution. You are pretty good with diagrams from what I have seen in the past, I still have them in a folder in the socks draw
To acquire the way of the Lotus sutra is not because we want to be Buddha for all eternity
Delete"There is, however, one extremely important statement in the chapter that is not to be overlooked.
After greeting the Buddha, the Bodhisattva Universal Virtue asks how good men and women are to gain the truth of the Lotus Sutra after the Buddha's extinction.
Shakyamuni answers that there are four requisites to its acquisition:
"first, to be under the guardianship of the Buddha's;
second, to plant the roots of virtue;
third, to enter correct congregation;
fourth, to aspire after the salvation of all the living."
We may understand here that we must have faith that we are ever watched over and minded by the buddhas; that in our daily lives we must do good deeds and foster virtue and goodness in ourselves; that we must associate with others in right service to the teaching; and that we must be animated by a desire to deliver all people in the understanding that true salvation means salvation with everyone else."
People who may have been put off by the profundity of the teachings of the Lotus Sutra may here very well get the feeling that they too can make it. This is a most appropriate conclusion to the Sutra of the Lotus Flower of the Wonderful Law. Niwano's commentary
CHAPTER 28
DeleteEncouragements of the Bodhisattva Universal Worthy
At that time Bodhisattva Universal Worthy, famed for his freely exercised transcendental powers, dignity, and virtue, in company with great bodhisattvas in immeasurable, boundless, indescribable numbers, arrived from the east. The lands that they passed through one and all quaked and trembled, jeweled lotus flowers rained down, and immeasurable hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of different kinds of music played. In addition, surrounded by a great assembly of numberless heavenly beings, dragons, yakshas, gandharvas, asuras, garudas, kimnaras, and mahoragas, human and nonhuman beings, each displayed his dignity, virtue, and transcendental powers.
When Bodhisattva Universal Worthy arrived in the midst of Mount Gridhrakuta in the saha world, he bowed his head to the ground in obeisance to Shakyamuni Buddha, circled around him to the right seven times, and said to the Buddha: “World-Honored One, when I was in the land of the buddha King Above Jeweled Dignity and Virtue, from far away I heard the Lotus Sutra being preached in this saha world. In company with this multitude of immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of bodhisattvas I have come to listen to and accept it. I beg that the world-honored one will preach it for us. And good men and good women in the time after the thus come one has entered extinction—how will they be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra?”
p.361The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfill four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered extinction, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfill these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered extinction they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
At that time Bodhisattva Universal Worthy said to the Buddha: “World-Honored One, in the evil and corrupt age of the last five-hundred-year period, if there is someone who accepts and upholds this sutra, I will guard and protect him, free him from decline and harm, see that he attains peace and tranquillity, and make certain that no one can spy out and take advantage of his shortcomings. No devil, devil’s son, devil’s daughter, devil’s minion, or one possessed by the devil, no yaksha, rakshasa, kumbhanda, pishacha, kritya, putana, vetada, or other being that torments humans will be able to take advantage of him.
“Whether that person is walking or standing, if he reads and recites this sutra, then at that time I will mount my six-tusked kingly white elephant and with my multitude of great bodhisattvas will proceed to where he is. I will manifest myself, offer alms, guard and protect him, and bring comfort to his mind. I will do this because I too want to offer alms to the Lotus Sutra. If when that person is seated he ponders this sutra, at that time too I will mount my kingly white elephant and manifest myself in his presence. If that person should forget a single phrase or verse of the Lotus Sutra, I will prompt him and join him in reading and reciting so that he will gain understanding. At that time the person who accepts, upholds, reads, and recites the Lotus Sutra will be able to see my body, will be filled with great joy, and will apply himself with greater diligence than ever. Because he has seen me, he will immediately acquire samadhis and dharanis. These are called the repetition dharani, the hundred, thousand, ten thousand, million repetition dharani, and the Dharma sound expedient dharani. He will acquire dharanis such as these.
Warning-- Noel's arbitrary opinions ahead:
Delete"To acquire the way of the Lotus sutra is not because we want to be Buddha for all eternity "
Noel, speak for YOURSELF-- and please stop this pontificating as though YOU have some *superior *understanding--
It is you, and always you, who cannot accept the teachings as they are written; YOU and always you who attacks anyone pointing this out to you, and YOU, who continually confuses the True teaching with whatever esoteric nonsense you personally believe--.
And it is YOU that Stav described this way:
"Noel's presentation of Buddhiam and his understanding of it could not convert any reasonable person it lacks clear inside; "
and:
Stav - to Noel : " But I always felt that they were your ideas and I am glad I heard the correct teachings which I always felt like that to be true."
and:
Stav to Noel :"Hi Noel
You don't feel peace neither speak in peace; and what you say about Katie look at your self as well if you feel offended then you too don't offend;
It shows weakness from you the aggressive behaviour so lets continue instead in a more intelligent and mature way."
I am not going to sit by and allow you to enter even greater confusion than that which turned Stav OFF to listening to you BEFORE you posted your dialogue here.
~Katie
When a person’s offense is minor, admonishment is sometimes called for, but at other times it may be unnecessary, for there are those who may correct themselves without being told. Reprove a person for slander when necessary, so that you can forestall for both of you the consequences of an offense. Then, you should forgive that person. The point is that even minor slanders may lead to serious ones, and then the effects one must suffer would be far worse. This is [what Chang-an means when he writes], “One who rids the offender of evil is acting as his parent.”
DeleteMany such examples of slander are also found among Nichiren’s disciples and lay believers. I am sure that you have heard about the lay priest Ichinosawa. Privately he is considered one of Nichiren’s followers, but publicly he still remains in the Nembutsu school. What should be done about his next life? Nevertheless, I have presented him with the ten volumes of the Lotus Sutra."
And there are those who correct others while they themselves continue to distort the teachings....
Delete"Noel; I believe that when one reaches the stage where there is no retrogression means that when we are at the stage of being at one with the Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One Musa Sanjin Buddha there will be no retrogression.
Since we and all Bodhisattvas an Buddhas (historical Shakyamuni Buddha) throughout the multiverse are only temporary at one with the Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One at different durations throughout eternity either in a fully cultivated form or momentarily as in this life Only while believing the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren's teachings can one remain at one with the Trikāya, triple body of enlightenment , Primordial Eternal 3 bodied Tathagatta Thus Come One, Musa Sanjin Buddha, where there is no retrogression".
THIS is not a teaching I have ever encountered in the writings of Nichiren. It does not sound like the Buddha's golden words in the Lotus Sutra.
It is Noel's belief and it is this explanation he offers after saying this to the person he is "Compassionately Converting":
Noel to Stav: "You mistake the state of Buddhahood for an individual who becomes Buddha for ever
you need to get busy with your crayons as Katie suggested so you can understand the concept of ichinen sanzen which would be a major milestone in your spiritual evolution. You are pretty good with diagrams from what I have seen in the past, I still have them in a folder in the socks draw[er]"
I did not suggest Stav *get busy with crayons*, I described a means for diagramming a supreme doctrine from the Lotus Sutra; 3,000 Realms in a Single Moment of Life!
Why not just let Noel expound his own beliefs and demean my sincere efforts to share the teachings of the Lotus Sutra? Why not just let Noel belittle and berate the person he is *compassionately converting* to his own beliefs?
"When the Buddha appeared in the world. these ninety-five groups of non-Buddhists conspired with the rulers, ministers, and common people of the sixteen major states of India, some of them reviling the Buddha, others attacking him or slaying his disciples and lay supporters in incalculable numbers. but the Buddha did not slacken his resolve, for he said, were he to cease preaching the Law because of intimidation from others, then all living beings alike would surely fall into hell. He was deeply moved by pity and had no thought of desisting. "
"These non-Buddhist Teachings came about through a mistaken reading of the various sutras of the Buddhas who preceded Shakyamuni Buddha. " (" Three Tripitaka Masters Pray For Rain" WND vol. 1. p. 601)
In the same Gosho, Nichiren writes:
" 'Is this really true?' Some of my disciples may be asking. 'Does Nichiren really have an understanding superior to that of Jikaku and Chisho?' BUT I AM ONLY GOING BY WHAT THE BUDDHA PREDICTED IN THE SUTRAS."
I have no thought of desisting , I am moved by the Buddha's resolve and Nichiren's dedication to upholding the Lotus Sutra.
~Katie
Stavros how easy it is to accept what is already in line with what we believe without having any room for doubt and make the common enemy of the one who doesnt share the same opinion as what you Mark and Katie have done to me over the Buddha of non retrogresion issue
DeleteNoel i follow the scriptures; the declarations of persons who had the experience these are the founders and authors of the scriptures through their own testimony; but i am over of these doubts on this subject i contemplate a lot on these things and came to accept what they say to be true. You know how much research i have done and delved deeply on these things so as to come to this conclusion and agreement.
DeleteSx
We need loving kindness and unity Noel not enemies Sx
DeleteNichiren made many enemies because of his pronouncements in the following example in the same way as I have for daring to go against a theory of mainstream belief that a Buddha can never retrogress
Delete“Monks who study only the writings refer to those who are concerned only with the scholastic aspects without understanding the true meaning of the scriptures through wisdom; and Zen monks who are concerned only with formality refer to those who are concerned with the conventions of meditation without firmly grasping the fundamentals.
This is the same as the meditation of Brahmans, who will never gain complete freedom from delusions and evil passions. T’ien-t’ai’s statement that some Zen monks concentrate only on meditation is an understatement sympathetic to them. In actuality, they lack both practice in meditation as well as wisdom to understand the doctrine.
Those who practice Zen consider only the meditation important and pay little attention to the study of doctrines. They interpretet sutras from the viewpoint of meditation in such an absurd way as to say that the eight-fold Evil Path and the Eight Winds make the sixteen-feet tall Buddha, and the Five Elements of all existences and the Three Poisons of greed, anger, and stupidity make the Eight-fold Evil Path. They confuse the six sensory organs with the Six superhuman Powers, or confuse the basic elements of the material world (earth, water, fire, and wind) with the Four Noble Truths.
That such interpretations of the sutras are the worst of all is beyond question, an absurdity not worthy of discussion.” Nichiren
I am so thankful to the Divine that there are other paths and I can be free from such a pell-mell of you Buddhism!
DeleteSx
So its just not my interpretation for having the freedom of choice to believe in the non retrogression of a Buddha that doesn't fit into your idea of World religion its also Nichiren's
Deleteviews that you have disagreement. You disagree with others and give your reasons why in the same way Nichiren does. Just read what you have said to me. How could I ever embrace a world religion that doesn't respect the individuals freedom of choice for what they deem as being reasonable
AND THAT IS WHY":
YOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE
YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE.
ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
I have more faith and positive outlook at the prospect of full enlightenment as a permanent individual attainment inspite of the universal aspect of ignorance still in existence, although in enlightennt state the illusion which appear to half awake will be perceived differently as potentially inherent with perfect involved essence to be realized in time.
My Spirituality is positive and dynamic with a faith of total individual freedom from illusion just like the world of Buddhahood states and you disbelieve giving it different interpretation while denying the open clear statement it makes"
I'm not angry at you anymore for having your beliefs that cause you to be angry at me for having mine. I don't feel threatened at all but rather compassion towards you and others that berate me for my beliefs that I believe are in alignment with the profound teachings of the Lotus Sutra that Nichiren perceived and was vilified for doing so. It feels like to me what has been happening is as the old case of "history repeating itself"
I just see a confused man
DeleteOur perception is relative to our awareness according to our capacity. Much could be said about that and would be better left to avoid an unpleasant exchange as what has has been happening at times throughout the posts.
DeleteSo why you want to have always the last word over all that you are right, making and placing your self like someone who got the highest truth the most profound truth that only you can grasp from the scriptures while others quoted directly from the scriptures the clearest meaning; why are you so stubborn, even if Sakyamuni himself was to appear to you and tell you that my attainment is without retrogression you would argue and defend your view against him trying to convince him otherwise. Just give up Noel you have been defeated so stop the dramas and pretention; stand up and be a man and follow the correct teachings.
DeleteSx
Our perception is relative to our awareness according to our capacity. Much could be said about that and would be better left to avoid an unpleasant exchange as what has has been happening at times throughout the posts.
DeleteSo your capacity is greater then that of the scriptures; if that is the case then why following or placing your self as a follower and representative of Nichiren Buddhism if you go against his Buddhism; your fellow Buddhist practitioners proved from scriptures that you are wrong and you could not apart from your imagination produce any scriptural evidence to support your assumption.
DeleteThe way you insisting against the scriptures only shows that you are not really interested in what is the truth but only In your ego being right, if you argue that it is not from your ego but truth which you see from the scriptures you have to present the scriptures to prove your statement otherwise you should better follow some other religion which shares your views!
Because definitely this is not your religion and you don't represent it with your believes!
"Monks who study only the writings refer to those who are concerned only with the scholastic aspects without understanding the true meaning of the scriptures through wisdom;"
DeleteThere are many different ways to interpret scripture within Nichiren Budhism if it wasn't so there wouldn't be so many sects and even amongst them there are different interpretations that they think might or is the true meaning. And on top of that they accuse one another of slander if others interpretations don't agree with theirs. You know how it is Stavros it happens everywhere
But till now Noel it is only you who believes or perhaps your wife Kumiko too in these interpretations (which are only from you both)of Nichiren, you haven't shown no other proof!
DeleteStavros the wisdom of Thus Come One is difficult to believe and difficult to understand
DeleteThis is where the saying comes in that sounds boastful and arrogant "Its lonely at the top"
Even though much proof has been provided by Nichiren in his vast writings if one lacks wisdom we will mistake yellow rocks for Gold Nuggets
“Shariputra, in the worlds of the ten directions, there are not two vehicles, much less three! Shariputra, the buddhas appear in evil worlds of five impurities. These are the so-called impurity of the age, impurity of desire, impurity of living beings, impurity of view, and impurity of life span.
“Shariputra, when the age is impure and the times are chaotic, then the defilements of living beings are grave, they are greedy and jealous and put down roots that are not good. Because of this, the buddhas, utilizing the power of expedient means, apply distinctions to the one buddha vehicle and preach as though it were three.
“Shariputra, if any of my disciples should claim to be an arhat or a pratyekabuddha and yet does not heed or understand that the buddhas, the thus come ones, simply teach and convert the bodhisattvas, then he is no disciple of mine, he is no arhat or pratyekabuddha.
“Again, Shariputra, if there should be monks or nuns who claim that they have already attained the status of arhat, that these are their last incarnations, that they have reached the final nirvana, and that therefore they have no further intention of seeking supreme perfect enlightenment, then you should understand that such as these are all persons of overbearing arrogance.
Why do I say this? Because if there are monks who have truly attained the status of arhat, then it would be unthinkable that they should fail to believe this Law. The only exception would be in a time after the Buddha had passed away, when there was no buddha present in the world.
Why is this? Because after the Buddha has passed away it will be difficult to find those who can embrace, read, recite, and understand the meaning of a sutra such as this. But if they encounter another buddha, then they will attain decisive understanding with regard to this Law."
Lotus Sutra: 2 Expedient Means
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DeleteYou provide no proof, just your imaginations; you have been presented from scriptures with truth that proof that you are both wrong so just give up your ego's then you may be free to progress!
DeleteTHE END
Have you asked your friend SGIA self appointed spokesman Safwan Zabalawi what his views are on wheather it is possible that someone who has become a Buddha will never retrogess ???
DeleteHave you asked your friend SGIA self appointed spokesman Safwan Zabalawi what his views are on wheather it is possible that someone who has become a Buddha will never retrogess ???
DeletePre Lotus Sutra and non Buddhist teachings really don't get this;
ReplyDeleteFurther proof of the truth that ignorance and enlightenment are one in essence is found in the passage in the Lotus Sutra that reads, “These phenomena are part of an abiding Law, [and] the characteristics of the world are constantly abiding.”8 Great Perfection of Wisdom says, “Enlightenment and ignorance are not different things, not separate things. To understand this is what is called the Middle Way.”
There are many passages of proof asserting that the mystic principle of the true aspect of reality possesses two aspects, the defiled and the pure. But none can surpass the one in the Flower Garland Sutra that says, “The mind, the Buddha, and all living beings—these three things are without distinction,” or the passage in the Lotus Sutra that describes the true aspect of all phenomena.
The Great Teacher Nan-yüeh says, “The entity of the mind is endowed with two aspects, the defiled and the pure. However, it does not have two different forms but is single in nature and without distinction.”9 And the example of the mirror10 that he gives truly presents a thorough explanation of the subject. For a more detailed understanding, one may also refer to his interpretations in The Mahayana Method of Concentration and Insight.
Another good explanation is given in the sixth volume of Miao-lo’s Annotations on “The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra,” in the passage that reads: “While the three thousand realms remain latent [in ordinary beings], they are all designated by the term ‘ignorance.’ But when the three thousand realms all manifest themselves as the result [of Buddhahood], then they are all designated by the term ‘eternal p.419happiness.’ However, because the three thousand realms themselves remain unchanged, ignorance is essentially one with enlightenment. Since the three thousand realms all remain constant, they possess both entity and function.” This commentary makes the matter perfectly clear. - The Entity of the Mystic Law
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what you still dont undersatnd and i try to meke a point to you that i do believe and accept what your teachings is stating and that is not a provisional teaching it is a teaching of the now of your Buddhism that the World of Buddhahood is "
Buddhahood: Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, WE CAN RESOLVE HARMONIOUSLY WHAT APPEAR FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE NINE WORLDS TO BE INSOLUBBLE CONTRADICTIONS. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a TRUE SELF, PERFECT FREEDOM from KARMIK BONDS THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!!.. , a LIFE PURIFIED OF ILLUSION, and ABSOLUTE HAPPINESS!!.
This is what i accept whole heartedly;
I dont accept the teachings which you claim and have no scriptural support that all the Buddhas will eventiuly fall into delusion and lower forms of life which you have stated in the previous mail; and on the contrary you send me something which claims that Buddha entered extinction; Your scripture doesn't say that the individual who have attain full Buddhahood will become again deluded and enter the lower forms of life on the contrary it seems to state that it will be extinct; this is what you send me " The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfil four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the Buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfil these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
This i dont belive that above i believe as i told you many times in full realization of Buddhahood and enlightenment in this very body on earth, one no need to go into high heavens (* unles one wants ) to attain full enlightenment and freedom from delusion and lower nature , neither one need to enter extinction beyond the manifestation into some formless Substance or Essence to be fully free; on the contrary to you i believe in a total perfection unlike you who believes that there cant be full freedom and eternal in ones individual attainment and that is why my last mail i send bellow to express that. I have more faith and positive outlook at the prospect of full enlightenmet as a permanent individual attainment inspite of the universal aspect of ignorance still in existence, although in enlightennt state the illusion which appear to half awake will be percieved differently as potentially inherent with perfect involed essence to be realized in time.
My Spirituality is positive and dynamic witha faith of total individual freedom from illusion just like the world of Buddhahod states and you disbelieve giving it diferenet interpretation while denying the open clear statement it makes.
AND THAT IS WHY":
DeleteYOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE
YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE.
ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
However, because the three thousand realms themselves remain unchanged, ignorance is essentially one with enlightenment. Since the three thousand realms all remain constant, they possess both entity and function.” This commentary makes the matter perfectly clear. - The Entity of the Mystic Law
DeleteYou state the universal affair will remain same or constant, are you the same and constant or are you changing..? the worlds or states of consiousness may be there for those who manifest them but there are also the worlds or states of the Buddhahood which can transform the other nine and this is what we aspire to attain, to become situated in our True Self and transform from that state of consciousness the rest of our being including the nine "worlds" . You just keep stating that the illusion and enlightenment is one; they come from the One essence but they are very different in consciousness and application and this is what we want to manifest, the enlightent state of our True Being the Illusion is the shadow aspect NOT the TRUE BEING or SELF or AMALA; there is individual change and progress within this universal happening the universal will keep happening but in that happening there is individual growth into perfection of our true nature; That you seem to disregard as which grows and change upward and forward and not backward and downward, it is a evolution and manifestaion of what is innate the perfect Buddha nature; our goal is to manifest that and we are on the individual journey within this universal being. And that is ultimtelly the individual attainment when reached full Buddhahood irreversable;
You are rebuking Tientai, Dengyo, and Nichiren, and Shakyamuni who preached the Lotus Sutra
Delete"ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!"
You are a MENTAL CASE who clings to Hinayana provisional Mahayana teachings and Vedanta teachings, even though you have been fortunate enough to encounter the Lotus Sutra, you cannot advance beyond Vedanta, Hinayana or provisional Mahayana views. You are convinced that your views are correct, and even worse you slander the votaries of the Lotus Sutra which will cause you severe karmic retribution according to the scriptures that you twists and slanders to your own demise
When it comes to understanding the Lotus Sutra you are no more than an infant who cannot understand the principles of cause and effect like your arrogant Vedanta mentors proud boastful Brahman inch worms of the Vedanta school that you identify with.
But although you make your way upward bit by bit like an inchworm, you will fall back from the heaven where there is neither thought nor no thought, and descend instead into the three evil paths.
Nor will you succeed in remaining on the level of the heavens, though you believe that once having attained that level you will never descend from it. This is what Nichiren says about the likes of you who are full of hatred towards the Lotus Sutra. The words you have written prove your scornful declaration of Nichiren Buddhism which has sealed your fate according to the scriptures unless you repent
oops-- ??
DeleteNoel, I am confused-- are you claiming that Buddhahood is or is not irreversible?
If one who had attained Buddhaood, *chooses* to reincarnate in a lower world, life state, for the purpose of leading others to Buddhaood-- THAT would not be Buddhahood reversal, would it? Wouldn't it merely be a prime example of *total freedom* to use one's life exactly for the purpose one has freely predetermined from perfect enlightenment about LIFE, itself ??
This is a sticky point-- it is a matter, I think of understanding that when one attains Buddhahood, one does still possesses the other nine worlds-- .
think about it this way, IF attaining Buddhahood is possible in one's present form, we have to accept that all of the other nine worlds are going to remain intact. Therefore, when all 9 have been *illuminated* by the world of Buddhaood-- EACH has the potential for a *higher purpose*--
Thus Buddhahood entails Total Freedom to choose how one uses each life state for greater good-- having perfect enlightenment, I believe , would mean full understanding of dependent origination and our connection to ALL living beings and indeed to all life phenomena-- The possibilities of generating ultimate good-- for the sake of all humanity and all of life, itself-- well, pretty much beyond calculation... or comprehension--
~Katie
Katie I agree with all that you say in what you have so far presented to Stavros and to me just now and I would like to have this opportunity to commend you at how graciously you present the teachings that we hold so dear
Delete"Rather than having a concept in mind of what the ultimate attainment IS in actuality, I practice to reveal the True Reality moment to moment, thus deepending my faith in the teaching, the one and only teaching preached by Shakyamuni Buddha that predicts Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime."
I am more than happy that Shakyamuni Buddha predicted Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime
"From my own understanding, there is no regression from the attainment of Buddhahood-- only more unimaginable possibilities for unlimited potential to use this highest state of life, in this world and beyond"
If we as individuals with our own unique karmic pattern have existed from a time that has no beginning and a time that has no end, wouldn't it stand to reason that we have already been Buddha's in the infinite past and can become Buddha's in this present life time as well as life times in the infinite future
After all eternity is a hell of a long time and their are infinite possibilities of what could happen. There will always be temptation and a free mind to choose and understand the gravity of our consequences.To think that we will forever be the same heavenly realm like some Vedanta, Buddhist Monotheistic religions etc. I believe is a tab too optimistic. Nichiren says that we were cast down to this Saha world from higher realms by Buddha's for the crimes we committed there
"Pre- Lotus Sutra teachings identified the world the Buddhahood, but the Buddha taught that it was not possible for ALL to attain this ultimate awakening and pure state of existence. The Lotus Sutra teaching of the mutual inclusive 10 worlds changed that --opening The Way for All-- by extension, the 3,000 realms in a single life moment, also ONLY taught in the Lotus Sutra, further illuminates the truth that indeed, ALL possess the potential that is inherent eternally in ALL life, and this is just the basic "difficult to believe and difficult to understand" teaching that is only in The Eternal Buddha's highest teaching, the Lotus Sutra."
Even though we may not yet be a fully cultivated Buddha's who have reached the 24 hours 7 days a week, year in year out stage, we can momentary enter into that same state of Buddhahood through the 3,000 realms in a single life moment because of the mutual inclusive 10 worlds then the other 9 worlds start to shine because of our dynamic Buddha nature that becomes activated through our practice and faith.
Even though I'm far from being a full blown Buddha I rejoice in in being at this stage of temporary enlightenment and the hope that this this life condition of Buddhahood is always available (even though at times I may not be aware of it) throughout the never ending cycles of birth and death of eternal life
Noel, your response has given me deeper insight into the stumbling block that changed the tone of your discussion, and sent you and Stav over the cliff, so to speak. It is, I have to admit, very courageous of you and Stav to share your exchange here. With appreciation, I am offering another perception, based on what I have studied and my own experience.
DeleteIt seems that Stav's overtly negative response was in regard to your inserting your personal views based on your own reasoning with regard to conceptualizing the attainment of Buddhahood. Just as you have responded to my comment above, you have also stated in your discussion/debate with Stav, as follows:
"If we as individuals with our own unique karmic pattern have existed from a time that has no beginning and a time that has no end, wouldn't it stand to reason that we have already been Buddha's in the infinite past and can become Buddha's in this present life time as well as life times in the infinite future."
The fact that you and I disagree on this issue, is not as important as considering that we are employing our own imperfect reasoning capabilities to describe what neither of us could possibly know with any degree of certainty. However, we differ in another, more important aspect, that is; your conjecture is purely your own idea, while I am adhering to what Nichiren has actually written , and NOT written, based on the True Buddha's teachings.
I cannot find a single reference in the Gosho that describes regression from attaining Buddhahood, but more informative, since maybe I missed something, is the example of the many different incarnations of Shakyamuni, who attained Buddhahood in *time without beginning *. It can only be said that his many appearances in this saha world were expedient means for awakening human beings, causing them to seek *The Way*, and teaching various practices that suited their capacities. In each of his existences, he created causes that *lengthened his life span* and brought benefit to others.
From the perspective of 3,000 realms in a single life moment, once Buddhood is the predominant life state, all aspects of one's life will exhibit the effect of enlightenment - The 5 components of which we are comprised would all manifest the pure world of
Buddhaood-- most significant would be our consciousness. Consider, then what would remain in our *karma storehouse* and how this would effect each of the 10 factors-- Would there be any internal causes or latent effects of *slander*? What would enter our thoughts and give rise to actions that would degrade the *True entity* in ourselves and others?
So, while I do not agree that it is reasonable to assume we all have been Buddha's in past existences, I say this based on the teachings Nichiren documented, which he based on the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren describes the evil influences and karmic impediments that will prevent a practitioner from attaining Buddhahood. He describes and exemplifies the practice for expiating sins of slander, and describes Shakyamuni's devotion to saving all living beings as the *ideal filial conduct* that no other Buddha exhibited. The best example we have of the life of a Buddha is Shakyamuni. Based on Nichiren's teachings, we only have reason to believe that attaining Buddhahood is to attain all of the benefits Shakyamuni attained-- and though we can never know the full extent of those benefits, there is no example of *losing or giving up* the life state of a Buddha.
~Katie
cont'd
The next paragraph from your response to me above is even more illustrative of the issue I am raising with regard to the difference between sharing *the teachings* and sharing from *one's own mind*
Delete"After all eternity is a hell of a long time and their are infinite possibilities of what could happen. There will always be temptation and a free mind to choose and understand the gravity of our consequences.To think that we will forever be the same heavenly realm like some Vedanta, Buddhist Monotheistic religions etc. I believe is a tab too optimistic. Nichiren says that we were cast down to this Saha world from higher realms by Buddha's for the crimes we committed there."
Nichiren doesn't say we were Buddhas in the higher realms where we committed offenses that led to transmigration in this saha world. By the same token, Nichiren does not describe The True Buddha as being in a *heavenly realm*. The world [realm] of *heaven* is also called, *rapture * and is the 6th of the lower worlds.
Again, if you need to conceptualize what it is like to be a Buddha-- Shakyamuni is the best model-- not once, since *time without beginning* has Shakyamuni forsaken Buddhahood. Consider Nichiren's vow based on faith in the Lotus Sutra "whether tempted by good or threatened by evil..."
I think you owe Stav an apology for berating him for slander of Nichiren and The Lotus Sutra. His negativity was evoked from the personal beliefs you shared, NOT in response to the True Teachings. Whether or not he takes faith in the Lotus Sutra, is a separate matter from his current thoughts and beliefs regarding it. It does not appear that he is slandering the Lotus Sutra, but that differences have arisen between his understanding and your presentation. In other words, he is upset about your personal beliefs, so you can't claim to be under attack for *the sake of the Lotus Sutra*-- and likewise, Stav is not slandering you.
When we share the teachings of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra Buddhism it is imperative that we don't add any of our own personal opinions or theories-- about the *teachings* themselves. Receiving input from *good friends of the Dharma* is indispensable - recall that I received a much needed rebuke here not so long ago. I am sure it is not the last, in fact, I sincerely hope it is not. Just as I hope to be challenged on anything I have shared that diverges from Nichiren's teachings.
Best,
~Katie
We all have our arbitrary opinions don't we Katie, I overestimated your capacity and I feel that you are way out of line on some things once more as you have been in the past and have been reprimanded for it.
DeleteWe are better off listening to Nichiren and make up our own mind about it. The conclusions we draw are relative and subjective to our experience . The same goes for individuals so with schools of thought with their myriad of interpretations and it goes on for ever and ever and never stops.
Some have revelation through scripture that aren't just in black and white that have profound meaning to it when we connect the story lines
“Unless one perceives the nature of one’s life, one cannot eradicate one’s grave offenses.”This passage implies that, unless one perceives the nature of one’s life, one’s practice will become an endless, painful austerity. Therefore, such students of Buddhism are condemned as non-Buddhist. Great Concentration and Insight states that, although they study Buddhism, their views are no different from those of non-Buddhists.
Whether you chant the Buddha’s name, recite the sutra, or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits and roots of goodness in your life. With this conviction you should strive in faith. The Vimalakīrti Sutra states that, when one seeks the Buddhas’ emancipation in the minds of ordinary beings, one finds that ordinary beings are the entities of enlightenment, and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. It also states that, if the minds of living beings are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds.
It is the same with a Buddha and an ordinary being. When deluded, one is called an ordinary being, but when enlightened, one is called a Buddha. This is similar to a tarnished mirror that will shine like a jewel when polished. A mind now clouded by the illusions of the innate darkness of life is like a tarnished mirror, but when polished, it is sure to become like a clear mirror, reflecting the essential nature of phenomena and the true aspect of reality. Arouse deep faith, and diligently polish your mirror day and night. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo.
On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime
DeleteThank you Katie for clarifying Nichiren's teachings and for your bravery to stand up and putting things in right place and order.
I am very glad in hearing from someone who follows and practices Nichiren Buddhism a dynamic and positive realization of the teachings.
Thank you for seeing it and understanding that I was not being disrespectful or hostile to the true teachings; I was not and neither am now hostile to Noel but when it comes to the teachings, to the Ideal, to the Principles of truth and their statements I am firm in standing up for them; these are our only hope, our shelter, our guidance, our inspiration, our courage and strength our deliverance into lasting perfection and we should sincerely follow them as seekers of truth and persons who want to transform our lives into That Truth; if for some reason or other we are not able or not ready to follow them at least we should not distorted them or degrade them to something else from what they are clearly stating. We should instead hold them in front of our vision as our highest ideal and prospect.
"From my own understanding, there is no regression from the attainment of Buddhahood-- only more unimaginable possibilities for unlimited potential to use this highest state of life, in this world and beyond"
Beautiful I share full heartedly the prospect of Eternal ongoing ever increasing Perfection!
From the perspective of 3,000 realms in a single life moment, once Buddhood is the predominant life state, all aspects of one's life will exhibit the effect of enlightenment - The 5 components of which we are comprised would all manifest the pure world of
Buddhaood-- most significant would be our consciousness. Consider, then what would remain in our *karma storehouse* and how this would effect each of the 10 factors-- Would there be any internal causes or latent effects of *slander*? What would enter our thoughts and give rise to actions that would degrade the *True entity* in ourselves and others?
That's so True!
The best example we have of the life of a Buddha is Shakyamuni. Based on Nichiren's teachings, we only have reason to believe that attaining Buddhahood is to attain all of the benefits Shakyamuni attained-- and though we can never know the full extent of those benefits, there is no example of *losing or giving up* the life state of a Buddha.
How can it since they want all of us to attaint to that it must be something wonderful and lasting!
I know what Noel's seems to be the problem on this issue he thinks if the deluded aspect is also part of me as he many times expressed then if I am all perfect what will happen to that reality; the whole cannot exist without its absence; also if I am eternal and I was not a Buddha before then what I was or where I was..? and if I become That eternally what will happen to the rest of the show and I may get board after a time and want to experience delusion and do it all over again ( as once he said that ) But that is all because of the present state of human mind being unable to envisage the experience of such a existence of Buddhahood.
Sincere practice and purification will unable us to see clearly into the meaning of the scriptures.
Thank you again Katie for your inspiration and uplifting perception and understanding of your scriptures.
Have a good evening
Warm Greetings
Stav x
Noel, please provide a passage from Nichiren's writings that supports this statement:
Delete"We are better off listening to Nichiren and make up our own mind about it."
I am refuting it based on:
"Therefore in the sixth volume of the Nirvana Sutra, his final teaching delivered in the grove of sal trees, our merciful father Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings, said, 'Rely on the Law and not upon persons. Even when the great bodhisattva such as Universal Worthy and Manjushri, men who have returned to the stage of near-perfect enlightenment, expound the Buddhist teachings, if they do not do so with the sutra text in hand, then one should not heed them'."
Unless you can cite clear evidence that The True Buddha, Shakyamuni, preached the *teaching* you are propagating re: the regression from the attainment of Buddhahood, your *own mind*-- even though you chant the daimoku, is not in accord with the Buddha, and therefore is not to be relied upon.
Thanks,
~Katie
Ask for Marks opinoin on this matter. I would like to hear his opinion on whether it is possible to regress once we attain buddhahood and i dont mean in the temporary sence as in the mutual possession of the ten worlds in eternal moment
DeleteNoel, in regards to your statement:
Delete"Some have revelation through scripture that aren't just in black and white that have profound meaning to it when we connect the story lines ."
I think you will find that so -called, *revelations of the mind* are the basis for the teachings of Zen, which Nichiren thoroughly refuted from the strict admonishments in the Lotus Sutra against following any teaching that does not accord with the Buddha's *golden words*.
As you have noted, I have been admonished on this very site. I was, in fact, guilty of exactly what I perceive you are doing here, that is; responding and criticizing from my own *personal views*., and my emotional attachment to these views. It was the Gosho quotes Mark provided, in support of his position that caused me to reflect and to study the matter more in depth. Mark's position was firmly grounded in Nichiren's writings and in Nichiren's own actions, behavior. I encountered nothing in my study that supported my criticism of his speech and actions. I conceded and redacted my argument, , with appreciation for the opportunity to correct a serious error on my part.
If you are going to admonish, or reprimand me, please do so with the precise scriptural reference that supports your "revelations". Having failed to do this in your debate with Stav, you mistook his disapproval of your *personal view* as his disregard of the True teaching.
As Stav points out in his response to me, "But that is all because of the present state of human mind being unable to envisage the experience of such a existence of Buddhahood. "
Isn't this simply our shared karmic impediment? Our deluded, common mortal minds can believe in the Lotus Sutra,, but If even those at the stage of near-perfect enlightenment are not to be heeded UNLESS quoting from the text of the Lotus Sutra, how can any of us claim we have "revelations through scripture that have profound meaning"- though not recorded in the sutra? I assume that is what you meant by , "aren't just in black and white." ??
I will end here with one final *suggestion*, based upon Stav's own clearly stated response to my input;
"Thank you for seeing it and understanding that I was not being disrespectful or hostile to the true teachings; I was not and neither am now hostile to Noel but when it comes to the teachings, to the Ideal, to the Principles of truth and their statements I am firm in standing up for them; these are our only hope, our shelter, our guidance, our inspiration, our courage and strength our deliverance into lasting perfection and we should sincerely follow them as seekers of truth and persons who want to transform our lives into That Truth; if for some reason or other we are not able or not ready to follow them at least we should not distorted them or degrade them to something else from what they are clearly stating. We should instead hold them in front of our vision as our highest ideal and prospect. "
I sincerely hope you can make an apology to Stav for berating him in such a harsh manner. He deserves nothing less than respect and appreciation for openly and honestly engaging on this forum, helping us to deepen our faith and praising the Lotus Sutra.
My sincere thanks to you both, for this very enlightening experience !!
Best,
~Katie
"...one who helps eradicate slander of the Law will ascend to the state from which there can be no retrogression. Thus the passage tells us that the monk Realization of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Kāshyapa, and that King Possessor of Virtue was reborn as the Buddha Shakyamuni."
Deleteand
The sutra states, “Those persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in various Buddha lands, constantly reborn in company with their teachers,”6 and “If one stays close to the teachers of the Law, one will speedily gain the bodhisattva way. By following and learning from these p.748teachers one will see Buddhas as numerous as Ganges sands.”7 A commentary says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”8 Another commentary says, “In the beginning one followed this Buddha or bodhisattva and formed a bond with him, and so it will be through this Buddha or bodhisattva that one will attain one’s goal.”9 Above all, be sure to follow your original teacher so that you are able to attain Buddhahood. Shakyamuni Buddha is the original teacher for all people, and moreover, he is endowed with the virtues of sovereign and parent. Because I have expounded this teaching, I have been exiled and almost killed. As the saying goes, “Good advice grates on the ear.” But still I am not discouraged. The Lotus Sutra is like the seed, the Buddha like the sower, and the people like the field. If you deviate from these principles, not even I can save you in your next life.'
and
The “Life Span” chapter says, “I am the father of this world because I cure my deranged sons.”7 The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai says, “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.... Just as all the hundred rivers flow into the sea, so is one drawn by one’s connection with the Buddha and born in company with the Buddha.”
and
"Answer: When the Buddha was in the world and was seated beneath the bodhi tree, he gauged the capacities of the people of his time. He perceived that if he preached the Lotus Sutra immediately, then people would slander it and would fall into the evil paths. If he waited for forty and more years before preaching it, however, they would not slander it, but instead would advance to the first of the ten stages of security, where there is no more retrogression, and would continue to advance until they had reached the stage of perfect enlightenment. But he also realized that, in the muddy age of the Latter Day of the Law, the capacities of the people would be such that not one person in ten thousand would be capable of reaching the first of the ten stages of security. Likewise he knew that those who would preach the teachings in that time, not being Buddhas, would have great difficulty correctly gauging the capacities of the people. Therefore the Buddha gave permission for such persons to preach the Lotus Sutra from the very beginning so that people could establish some connection with the sutra, whether it was one of rejection or of acceptance."
“Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.”
“I am the only person”—
Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”
I believe that since even Bodhisattvas can reach the stage of non-retrogression, Buddhas do not retrogress.
The question remains: Are we Buddhas? if so we will never retrogress. Should one abandon the Lotus Sutra, one is neither a Bodhisattva nor Buddha and rapidly retrogresses.
I noticed in the quotes it never said 'Never Retrogress. This your opinion and others that share same capacity as yourself, so in this case Katie's statement applies to the whole lot of you. "I think you will find that so -called, *revelations of the mind* are the basis for the teachings of Zen, which Nichiren thoroughly refuted from the strict admonishments in the Lotus Sutra against following any teaching that does not accord with the Buddha's *golden words*.
DeleteYou are all guilty as hell for own arbitrary opinions that you accuse me of. Wake up and have a good look at yourselves
"In the Vimalakīrti Sutra we read: “Vimalakīrti once more questioned Manjushrī, saying, ‘What are the seeds of Buddhahood?’ Manjushrī replied, ‘All the delusions and defilements are the seeds of Buddhahood. Even though a person commits the five cardinal sins and is condemned to the hell of incessant suffering, he is still capable of conceiving the great desire for the way.’”
The same sutra also says: “Good man, let me give you a metaphor. The plains and highlands will never bring forth the stems and blossoms of the blue lotus or the water lily. But the muddy fields that are low-lying and damp—that is where you will find these flowers growing.”
It also says: “One who has already become an arhat and achieved the level of truth that goes with arhatship can never conceive the desire for the way and gain Buddhahood. He is like a man who has destroyed the five sense organs and therefore can never again enjoy the five delights that go with them.”
The point of this sutra is that the three poisons of greed, anger, and foolishness can become the seeds of Buddhahood, and the five cardinal sins such as the killing of one’s father can p.229likewise become the seeds of Buddhahood. Even if the high plains should bring forth blue lotus flowers, the persons of the two vehicles would never attain Buddhahood. The text is saying that, when the goodness of the persons of the two vehicles is compared with the evils of ordinary people, it will be found that, though the evils of ordinary people can lead to Buddhahood, the goodness of the persons of the two vehicles never can. The various Hinayana sutras censure evil and praise good. But this sutra, the Vimalakīrti, condemns the goodness of persons of the two vehicles and praises the evils of ordinary people. It would almost appear that it is not a Buddhist scripture at all, but rather the teachings of some non-Buddhist school. But the point is that it wants to make absolutely clear that the persons of the two vehicles can never become Buddhas." - The Opening of the Eyes
Nichiren had revelations of the mind based on the study of the Sutras "*revelations of the mind* are the basis for the teachings of Zen, which Nichiren thoroughly refuted from the strict admonishments in the Lotus Sutra against following any teaching that does not accord with the Buddha's *golden words*."
DeleteThe Buddha's golden words are also revelation from the mind that he experienced from practicing spiritual paths of the ancient wisdom of Vedanta that is said to have originated in Himalayas over 10,000 years ago. Shakyamini's teachings were said to be orally transmitted until they were written down to form sutras and have been changed around depending upon which school had hold of them as what happened/s with the good ol Bible that carries many universal truths as does many of world the religions and spiritual paths that I appreciate
I do thank Stavros for helping me, which is short of an apology for helping in making it clear to what I've been dealing with here and that my understanding is not representive of the Nichiren Buddhists here on Eagle Peak or may be any where else but that hasn't changed my view on how I see things. Good luck to all you wanabee forever non retrogressing Buddhas
Hi Noel, Just to be clear, iIs this your refutation : ??
Delete"I noticed in the quotes it never said 'Never Retrogress."
Here is a quote:
“Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.”
“I am the only person”—
Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is NO RETROGRESSION ” [my caps]
Can this be proven?
I suggested the 3,000 realms in a single life moment *exercise* for both you and Stav. Via a diagram, a visual, it is easier to appreciate that, for instance, *consciousness* does not exist apart from the other 4 components that unite *temporarily * to form an individual human being., or the 10 factors that describe how life functions in each of the ten worlds-- etc.. . way too complicated to write in a narrative, BUT, you will see, I promise you, why it is that the statement "NO RETROGRESSION" is based on the doctrines of the Lotus Sutra-- NOT just a revelation of mind.
Stay in the ring-- you won't be sorry...
Best,
Katie
Hi Stavros as long as some good comes out of all of this its worth it as things are not always what they seem. Life is full of surprises and whether we like them or not it is how we deal with them.
DeleteYou have criticised Nichirens presentation of concepts and some of their meanings in the previous posts that some that are reading these recent posts are oblivious to
This is why I'm unsure if your following statements were souly directed towards my interpretation or does it also include Nichirens writings
Thanks
AND THAT IS WHY":
YOUR BUDDHISM IS WEAK IT IS ALWAYS AT THE MERCY OF CIRCUMSTANCES , IT CANNOT TRANSFORM YOU PERMANENTLY AND YOUR LIFE
YOU JUST WILL LIVE ETERNALY A SLAVE OF NATURE WITHOUT ANY HOPE OF TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS ULTIMATELY PESSEMISTIC, WEAK AND PUSRPOSELESS OF ANY PERFECTION AND CROWNING FULFILMENT;
YOUR BUDDHISM IS A MENTAL CONSTRUCTION WITHOUT HIGHER SPIRITUAL REALIZATIONS AND SPIRITUAL DIMENSION, THAT IS WHY IT HASN'T PERCEIVED THE POSSIBILITIES OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND PERFECTION BECAUSE IT IS STILL IN THE DOMAIN OF MENTAL PLANE AND NOT IN TOUCH WITH TRUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE.
ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND FORCE CAN ACCOMPLISH SUCH A PERMANENT CHANGE BUT THAT REMAINS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR YOU BECAUSE YOUR BUDDHISM DRAWS ITS KNOWLEDGE FROM MENTAL PLANE A HIGH MENTAL PLANE BUT STILL A MENTAL PLANE WHICH CANNOT ENVISIONS THESE TRUTHS OF TOTAL TRANSFORMATION AND DIVINE PERFECTION!!
Hi Noel, I think you are being unreasonable here; first of all are you not rejoicing that this attainment of Buddhahood is permanent and ever growing? Didn't you say to Katie in one of your reply " I am more than happy that Shakyamuni Buddha predicted Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime" So you say you are happy for Buddhas prediction of perfect enlightenment in one very lifetime and yet you don't agree with that and you seem upset by statement of non-retrogression or perfect enlightenment which really means something lasting and not transitory and imperfect?
DeleteI don't know why you still seem to insist that way, even after so much proof shown to you; if that is from an ego just like some philosophers have and they always want to be different and that gives them a sense that they posses something so profound and their understanding is so deep that know one else can understand and accept,
I think this shouldn't have a place here among us who strive for a perfection for our selves and others and we should rejoice with such assurances from scriptures about our ultimate prospect and goal of life!
Why are you unhappy about it and contrary for such a great thing?
If your objection is based because you have doubt or because you came to such a personal conclusions from your understanding then don't you wish to harmonize your understanding with such a beautiful proposal of eternal freedom and non-retrogression?
DeleteAlso, the example above I feel you quite misunderstand, the Buddha nature is everywhere it cannot be destroyed you cant lose it or get rid of it, it is your own Highest Self , you can't step out of your self neither extinguish it, it can only become covert for short or long time but still temporary time; it is Conscious Living Force of Conscious Energy & Power, that is Eternal. That is within everything even in the smallest atoms and sub particles otherwise nothing can come into formation and hold its formation and exhibit functions and interchange.
And so no matter what you do ( yes you have to pay the consequences ) nothing can destroy that; even the worst sins and slanders you do each have their own weight and intensity and duration as a consequence, ultimately you will be free from that, any CRIME, so in everything is the potential and medicine for transformation even in the sinful seeds.
The Lotus sprouts in the mud, it is true. We are depended for our growth from this earth place and its experiences; and so in our early stages of growth and experience we commit many blunders and these are all opportunities and occasions for growth, the good and bad, and the bad is like a manure so to speak; so we may grow gradually stronger to a pure beautiful soul flowers; but there comes a stage that this extreme "duality" pain, suffering, disease, ugliness, any kind of suffering is no longer nessacery for some indeed as a lesson they don't create these conditions for them selves any more; one no more needs to see suffering to appreciate and desire well being, neither sickness to keep one self healthy with good habits appreciating and enjoying a healthy living, neither ugliness to understand and appreciate beauty, neither violence and hate to appreciate peace and love, one then grows and moves no more from suffering and dark ignorance but from light to more light, from truth to more truth , from beauty and love to more beauty and love.
Also you say about two vehicles they never achieve Buddhahood that is not exactly so; it simply states and want to show that those who think they are in possession of truth and thus in their pride and bigotry closed themselves and are not open for greater truth there is no hope or way for them to be saved from their condition while, the ordinary people who are evil are more praise worthy; It simply shows no matter how evil an ordinary person can be he can be saved because he is open and not proud and closed in his little teachings and understandings; and probably like we have seen even in Christ times the learned and Pharisees they were condemned too by Christ that they had no hope because the sinners were saying we are blind and open to the teachings while the learned said we see and there were no hope for them, as long as they are like that there is no hope if they change then yes they can attaint to Buddhahood; no one is condemned eternally we out of our ego or pride and ignorance are condemning our selves.
DeleteStav x
My criticism was with your interpretesion of Buddhism since I met you , you gave since then few books to resd and I liked them and I told you that many times but when it came to this Knot point there I always disagree and when you told me I don't know the whole of the teachings and that your conclusions were the true teachings which Nichiren expounded then there were times in the past that I did criticised the Nichiren Buddhism and the Teachings of the Lotus sutra but always because of your conclusions. But I always felt that they were your ideas and I am glad I heard the correct teachings which I always felt like that to be true.
DeleteSx
HI Katie, If the structure and function of the ordinary person and the Buddha weren't the same the title f Nichirens Gosho "On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime" wouldn't exist
Delete"IF you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life.
The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, true and correct in both word and principle. Its words are the ultimate reality, and this reality is the Mystic Law (myōhō). It is called the Mystic Law because it reveals the principle of the mutually inclusive relationship of a single moment of life and all phenomena. That is why this sutra is the wisdom of all Buddhas.
Life at each moment encompasses the body and mind and the self and environment of all sentient beings in the Ten Worlds as well as all insentient beings in the three thousand realms, including plants, sky, earth, and even the minutest particles of dust. Life at each moment permeates the entire realm of phenomena and is revealed in all phenomena. To be awakened to this principle is itself the mutually inclusive relationship of life at each moment and all phenomena.
Nevertheless, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but an inferior teaching. “Inferior teaching” means those other than this [Lotus] sutra, which are all expedient and provisional.
No expedient or provisional teaching leads directly to enlightenment, and without the direct path to enlightenment you cannot attain Buddhahood, even if you practice lifetime after lifetime for countless kalpas.
Attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime is then impossible. Therefore, when you chant myōhō and recite renge,1 you must summon up deep faith that Myoho-renge-kyo is your life itself."
I want to thank you Katie again that you stood up for the sake of truth and for the sake of others to do the right thing. I wanted some one else apart from Noel to bravely step in and set the things right.
DeleteI don't know Mark why he waited for so long maybe out of the feeling of not wanting to oppose critically one his own Nichiren Buddhist brother practitioner in favour of truth which was held by one not from the Nichiren Buddhsit group.
Anyway I like to thank you both for clearing things up; Mark by bringing so much evidence and you Katie which without you it would not have happened. I am happy and this gives me greater satisfaction then Noel's apology which I don't seek but I do hope that this evidence which was presented and your presence as representative of Nichiren Buddhism may inspire Noel to correct his understanding on this matter which he and his wife Kumiko believe in since the time I have met them at 1999.
Thank you Warmly Stav x
"My criticism was with your interpretation of Buddhism" Your criticisms have been about Nichirens teachings ever since I have known you just as they have been recently on this blog.
DeleteThese are your recent critical conclusions Stavros about Nichirens teachings
"The Great Teacher Miao-lo comments on this as follows: “Enlightenment has no separate entity but completely depends upon ignorance; and ignorance has no separate entity but completely depends upon enlightenment.”
I feel though here is a great insight ( to these teachings you have send ) but as far as the philosophical and intellectual ability of description and expression of these truths they are not as good in conveying that as the western philosophers would have; and that is why the teachings appear hard to understand not because they are so profound but because they are disorderly and messy, badly presented , badly explained , badly expressed without logical clearly intelligible sequence!
"Great Perfection of Wisdom says, “Enlightenment and ignorance are not different things, not separate things. To understand this is what is called the Middle Way.”
This is already explained below that they are different, so the above statement is misleading and erroneous; ( here is another disability of clear intellectual rendering and capacity) the above statement was implied and expressed by the previous ones and that is that they want simply to point that both derive from the one same essence.
I don't denying this, i have spoken and shown to an Indian Dr of phycology and scholar some of these verses and even to a Chinese Buddhist practitioner regarding their presentation; we all agree what they want to convey the non duality and that they come from the same Essential reality and thus great inside but they felt there is, as one of them said "I am also not sure who has translated these sutras. At places it seemed to me that there is a mis-reading due to language barrier." Also to the Chinese person it dint felt accurate translation.
DeleteNoel I don't know who wrote them and from what languages translated ( whether originally Sanskrit if these are from Lotus Sutra or from Chinese to Japanese and then English ), but they are poorly presented and open to misreading's,
From my experience of studying various scriptures and writings west and east they are the most poorly expressed not in a clear philosophical or accurate intellectual sequence, this is mine opinion and feeling and also the feeling and opinion of those with whom i have shared these.
Stav, I am happy that I was able to express my gratitude to you for your passionate and piercing expressions of our most vital struggle as human beings-- to understand the truth about ourselves and each other, and to appreciate that we need each other in our quest for perfect enlightenment.
DeleteHere on Eagle Peak transformations are ongoing and thanks to Mark, always based on the teachings of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism. I hope you will visit often :-)
Thank you so much for your very kind words and thoughtful acknowledgement of my efforts. This has been an amazing validation for me of the power and beauty of the heart, which I believe is the core of our humanity.
All the Best!
~Kati, I
All the Best to you too Dear Katie
DeleteStav x
Thanks all for your admonishment and for those that sat on the side line that didn't speak up who are complicit in slander. This has helped to expiate my negative karma.' I must have admonished others in past lives in the same way that I have been admonished for presenting the true teachings of the Lotus Sutra. So in the Spirit of Bodhisattva Never Disparaging I bow to you all Nam/u Myoho Renge Kyo Farewell
DeleteNoel,
DeleteNot so fast.... how can you claim that you have been admonished here for presenting the true teachings of the Lotus Sutra?
The admonishments originate in the writings of Nichiren and you will find myriad examples of the basic one: Not accepting a single verse of any other sutra; not adding to or subtracting from the teaching, the Buddha's golden words-- examples abound in recent postings here on "The Opening of The Eyes". why do you insist unmaking this personal??
Not long ago you commented on a blog here that you believed Nichiren meditated, continuing a practice he had learned as a Tendai priest. So, what do you have to say about this quote?
( "The Doctrine of Three Thousand Realms in a single Moment of Life.")(WND vol. 2 p.83-87)
""If the sutra meant that one could attain Buddhahood through contemplation of the mind alone, then why would it speak of "seeing, hearing, reading, reciting"? This sutra makes "hearing" the sole basis of practice."
"And I, Nichiren, declare that these words, "whether one accepts or rejects," "though one may comply with or go against them," constitute a passage worthy to be engraved on the heart.This is what the Lotus Sutra means when it says, "If there are those who hear the Law[then, not a one will fail to attain Buddhahood]." Here it speaks of those "who hear the Law." but if it were referring to those who attain Buddhahood through meditation, it would say, "If there are those who meditate on the Law."
WHY would Nichiren continue a practice he claims is insufficient, and not in accord with the Lotus Sutra?- Does Nichiren's statement here change your mind?
And still you persist with other *revelations of your own mind*:
NOEL: " What I'm saying is that I don't believe that once we or the historical Shakyamuni Buddha attain Buddhahood that we maintain that state for the all eternity but if that was true that being would be Alien to us being the common mortals that we are. The Buddha and the common mortal would no longer be one"
So, you don't believe:
MARK: "Profound Meaning, volume six, states: “Originally one followed this Buddha and for the first time conceived the desire to seek the way. And by following this Buddha again, one will reach the stage where there is no retrogression.”
Correcting misleading or erroneous teachings is practicing as Nichiren taught. Many references from his writings right here for you to review on these topics..
Finding fault with those who believe in the teachings exactly as they are written, is not the way to expiate negative karma!
~Katie
Hi stav,
ReplyDeleteI have been practicing and studying Nichiren's Lotus sutra Buddhism for 28 years. Reading your comment above and some of the dialogue between you and Noel, I would like to share a perspective on the *means* by which you both are attempting to 1) Explain profound teachings 2) Evaluate their relative meanings,3) Describe their benefit and 4) Judge their merits-- which is superior? The means you are employing is quite limited and fraught with obstacles; two monologues don't make a dialogue. Each of you is describing the teachings that support his core beliefs about life, that create your individual unique philosophy, encompassing creation, purpose, and perpetuation through the lens of an eternally existing, pure and perfect --"something" the we all either possess or can obtain. Because you each have formed some degree of attachment to your core beliefs, you are prone to look for inconsistencies and flaws in each others dissertation, in other words, rather than objectively processing the other's monologue, the content is processed through a filter of confirmation bias. Both of your monologues are interesting & informative , but since two monologues do not make a dialogue, neither of you has expanded your understanding to incorporate what the other has shared. And, as you stated above, conversion was not the result--which I am assuming Noel would have to agree.
I have a suggestion that is not in any way intended to convert either of you to any other religion, spiritual practice or life philosophy. It is only a different means for illustrating the profundity and the perfection of the Lotus Sutra. It is an *exercise*, not a a topic for debate , but the endeavor will naturally you into dialogue.
"A single life moment possesses three thousand realms", is a philosophical system set forth by T'ien-t'ai (538-597) in the Maka Shikan on the basis of the Lotus Sutra,clarifying the mutually inclusive relationship of the ultimate truth and the phenomenal world. T'ien-t'ai lived during the time the Buddha designated as the "Middle Day of The Law", when the wisdom to perceive this *doctrine* was within the capacity of human beings. We are living in the Latter Day of the Law, and according to the Buddha we are deficient in wisdom and cannot directly perceive the function of this doctrine. But, we can study it, and depict it in a manner that demonstrates the scientific logical underpinnings of this philosophical system.
~Katie
cont'd
To conduct this exercise you will need Nichiren Buddhism reference text, paper and pencil with eraser. The method I will describe for diagramming this doctrine is based on the one I used when studying Traditional Chinese Medicine, which is a holistic approach to our physiology, which for me, required a non-linear and fully integrated mind set that I had to develop.
ReplyDeleteThe diagram will identify the 3,000 realms:
The Ten worlds: Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Rapture, Humanity, Learning, Realization, Bodhisattva, Buddhahood. - Write them in a vertical column, with enough space between each one to write the *other nine worlds*. (each world contains the other nine, *mutual possession of the ten worlds*) 10 X 10 = 100 realms
Ten Factors : Appearance, Nature, Entity (life's physical aspect, spiritual aspect and the entity that manifests both); Power, Influene, Internal Cause, relation, Latent effect, Manifest effect (functions of life); Consistency from Beginning to End (integrating factor which unites the previous nine factors). 100 X 10 = 1,000 realms -- Write in linear column - define and describe each factor-
Three Realms of existence: *Individual living being; All other living beings, environment. 3 X 1000 = 3,000
A living being is the temporary union of five components : form, perception, conception, volition, consciousness - Write on far right of paper - describe each of five components.
This diagram is your reference, for the exercise you will need a few more sheets of paper.
~Katie
cont'd
Identify an individual living being (doesn't have to be yourself)
DeleteCreate a scenario, situation, event in which the person either initiates an action (cause), or is responding to circumstances (effect)-
Begin using five components- what is perceived through 5 sense organs; what is the concept created, what action is taken, how is the experience understood, what meaning does it have.
Note: consciousness accounts for *individual karma*-- determines which of the 10 worlds is manifest in the scenario.
Note: relationship between 10 factors and the *world* manifest in the experience-
What you can discover within this matrix is an explanation for basic tendencies , patterns of thought and behavior and the complexity of effecting dramatic, lasting change in any component of any of our life functions. Including attaining self perfection...
Using a fine tip colored marker , trace *Buddhahood* as it appears everywhere in the 10 worlds column--
All phenomena contain the True entity=Buddhahood, as the Buddha taught in the Lotus Sutra.
Using the same marker, trace the world & factors identified in the *person* you used for the exercise.
Life changes moment to moment-- the one constant realm is the True entity contained in all aspects of our lives and the environment. -- with the diagram you made, you can illustrate the function of the eternally inherent True Entity when it is activated --
You can also conceptualize what it means to attain the life state of Buddhaood, as well as perfect enlightenment - when one's life is predominantly Buddhaood.
~Katie
Hi Katie,
DeleteI wanted to get out of this Blog but was puled but after Noel send me this particular part of this Blog to show the approval and appreciation by others of his comments and supplements of scriptures; but when I saw that headline on top "Many thanks to Noel for his compassionate conversion practice" I was prompted to comment about ( his compassion.. ) about conversion practice or attempt which had the opposite effect to take every sympathy and attraction to the teachings ( of Noel's interpretation anyway which I don't share ).
What you say is partly true that it became kind of monologue although not at the at the beginning, my intention was to harmonize and to find universality through our discussion and still my intention is that; I don't know how much you followed our discussion but during the discussion there was made clear statement by few of the exclusiveness of this path of Nichiren Buddhism as the ONLY truth and the only way to truth to fully enlightenment or Buddhahood.
My intention was to bring together in a more comprehensive way and realization the truth of both or more ways of perception bringing greater awareness not as artificially synthesising something but putting things in the right perspective and order. But when we hit a "knot" I insisted to untie it or go through it by resolving it not avoiding it but dealing with it; and thus this persistence on both sides his to defend his stand mine to insist on Noel to see and face in the eyes what he don't send me as proof or what he has send me and what one of his Essential teachings says, to face and to answer; at first there were brought in other statements not directly answering that and finally at the end it came an answer that all these I am talking about are and belong to earlier provisional teachings prior to The Lotus Sutra.
But in my last mail briefly I opposed this answer of saying they are provisional teachings, that is simply not so, the description which you can see above about the Buddhahood world and as you already know it is a major essential declaration of what the state of Buddhahood is; and this is part of the whole Gohonzon a great part the most essential and fundamental; to try such a authoritative declaration to place it as not fully valid or not fully true and placing it to provisional teachings is not right.
This is the Highest ideal placed before humanity a total perfection of freedom and absolute happiness which should we bow to it in reverence for such a beautiful prospect and fulfilment that is awaiting us now or soon or little later for us to realize and manifest. Such an important truth to be overlooked or belittled or minimized or doubted ( yes one may at the present condition and state of consciousness have some doubt about such a possibility ) but the Truly wise ones don't give false promises but speak from their own attainment and experience of realization. who are we to deform it and bring it down such a high ideal as impossibility without having the experience ourselves and simply from our own present consciousness of duality and little light or half light make such a conclusions..?
Do you accept the statement about the world of Buddhahood literally as absolutely true?
You know, I have made long time ago some diagrams ( I shared some of them with my friend Noel as well ) I am aware of what you are saying of the teachings as a whole with their order and interconnectedness and influence .
DeleteI am aware of them everyday; these are part of my contemplation or rather the Self or the state of Buddhahood or Divine Spirit is my aspiration while being aware of the qualities and nature of different states of consciousness.
I don't know how much you are also knowledgeable of other religious paths or spiritual practices but they too more all less have description of different mental states and worlds not only as our own states of consciousness but worlds predominantly embodying these deferent states of consciousness's.
What you say I feel it and also the teachings mainly I follow of Vedanta ( by the way there are many schools of Vedanta which emphasise different aspects some are more dualistic others are qualified dualities meaning one in essential quality different in quantity, while others more or exclusively with monistic view accepting absolute equality and oneness with apparent or illusory difference and distinction ). What I follow and have faith in is the Purna Yoga meaning Full yoga or complete yoga or The Yoga of Perfection or Total Transformation; many use the word yoga loosely but yoga really means in Sanskrit to yoke to tie to ling the soul with spirit, the individual with the universal and absolute or to unite body mind and soul and spirit.
Also in the west we use the word religion from Latin "religare" which means to bind or join together same like yoga; so our purpose of life is to unite with God and His/Her or Thus That's Will, the universal Law the will of God.
As you say the True Entity or Reality is present everywhere in all through all everyone and everything; all have That True Nature and not only that I may add the True Reality it also envelops and transcends all formations as well as permeates them.
I am making comparative statements of the Brahman ( not some god brahman or brahnmanas priests) that is what is called in Indian or Sanskrit for the Fundamental Reality or The Ground Of Eternal Being.
I don't know how much you know apart from Buddhism about the teachings of Vedanta but that is why I am explaining these things so we may compare the similarities and the truth which they share; and connect more in consciousness in our discussion.
What you say about the "10" worlds , according to Vedanta there are "14" worlds adding more of the lower ones and adding other higher ones of art and creativity and science as parts or states of consciousness. They are there latent in the consciousness but also there as external influences and also subtle influences not only from our outer environment but also from other planes of other dimensions.
As you mention they appear in different scenarios and here is where the practice comes in being mindful of what takes place, what goes though ones consciousness , what should one reject what should one change, what should one accept or just simply watch without grasping and attachment.
About the factors, I have found this article
http://www.sgi.org/about-us/buddhism-in-daily-life/ten-factors.html
I will go through it tomorrow more closely than I can discuss on this with you.
Also about the last part you send me I like to discuss with you about it as well.
Its getting bit late.
Any question or comment feel free to express.
Goodnight Stav x
Hello Katie, thank you for the imput and the suggestion; when i finish work i will look into it " though i have many times thought and looked into this formulation of teachings ) and i will reply to you.
ReplyDeleteStav x
Hi Stav,
ReplyDeleteThank you for clarifying your points of contention and sharing your knowledge from your own religious path and spiritual practice. I appreciate your generosity as I my own knowledge of other religions and spiritual practices is quite limited. That said, what I have to offer is relevance of my study of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra Buddhism, that has grounded my experience from 28 years of practice. I am a nurse with a science oriented, evidence based mind set,that reflects my basic inquisitive nature. After 14 years of practicing in the medical field, I was losing my faith in science-- my spiritual path was the inevitable result of dissatisfaction with the knowledge base. I was never satisfied with explanations for exceptions to the rule, and needless to say I could not suspend reality to embrace any of the major world *monotheistic* religions. I deeply appreciate learning about others' experiences and practices, actually preferring the life to life teaching over formal study.
"Do you accept the statement about the world of Buddhahood literally as absolutely true?
A difficult question to answer, because my understanding of Buddhahood is based on my practice, chanting Namu myoho renge kyo and the writings of Nichiren Daishonin. There is no single statement about the world of Buddhahood that captures my belief in it, but I do believe this formula:
Namu myoho renge kyo = the True Entity = The Eternal Buddha = the world of Buddhahood inherent in all life phenomena.
The most direct means for testing the validity of this formula is to chant the daimoku (NMRK) with awareness of my present life state, the world that is predominantly functioning. It is then, that the experience of transformation can be appreciated, and proof that Buddhahood is indeed inherent in each of the other nine worlds. Buddhaood in the world of anger, for example, becomes determination to act with compassion for the sake of others, as opposed to defense of one's own *small ego*. It has become apparent to me, after 28 years conducting this experiment, that the process of inner transformation toward self perfection, is a matter of evoking and acting on the True Reality and the Mystic Law (NMRK)is our immediate access to it.
~Katie
Not to leave off the crucial matter of the attainment of Buddhahood- or the crux of your question, stay, I believe regarding the ultimate purpose for following Nichiren, and embracing the practice of the Lotus Sutra that he taught, that Buddhahood is a dynamic, not static life state, and it is the ultimate perfect enlightenment and pure state of existence.
DeletePre- Lotus Sutra teachings identified the world the Buddhahood, but the Buddha taught that it was not possible for ALL to attain this ultimate awakening and pure state of existence. The Lotus Sutra teaching of the mutual inclusive 10 worlds changed that --opening The Way for All-- by extension, the 3,000 realms in a single life moment, also ONLY taught in the Lotus Sutra, further illuminates the truth that indeed, ALL possess the potential that is inherent eternally in ALL life, and this is just the basic "difficult to believe and difficult to understand" teaching that is only in The Eternal Buddha's highest teaching, the Lotus Sutra.
Rather than having a concept in mind of what the ultimate attainment IS in actuality, I practice to reveal the True Reality moment to moment, thus deepending my faith in the teaching, the one and only teaching preached by Shakyamuni Buddha that predicts Buddhahood, perfect enlightenment for ALL- in one's present form in this lifetime.
From my own understanding, there is no regression from the attainment of Buddhahood-- only more unimaginable possibilities for unlimited potential to use this highest state of life, in this world and beyond.
I look forward to your response.
~Katie
Great Katie!
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTo all whom this may concern
ReplyDelete"This is similar to a tarnished mirror that will shine like a jewel when polished. A mind now clouded by the illusions of the innate darkness of life is like a tarnished mirror, but when polished, it is sure to become like a clear mirror, reflecting the essential nature of phenomena and the true aspect of reality. Arouse deep faith, and diligently polish your mirror day and night. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo."
It is the same with a Buddha and an ordinary being.
When deluded, one is called an ordinary being, but when enlightened, one is called a Buddha.
The structure of life and the potential functions are exactly the same between Buddha and common mortal
WE do not change our original structure when we become a Buddha and loosing our functions and becoming an Alien Entity this idea is insanity
Buddha's control their negative functions and activates their positive ones where the common mortal has less control over their negative functions and their positive functions are much less than a Buddha
"Whether you chant the Buddha’s name,3 recite the sutra, or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits and roots of goodness in your life. With this conviction you should strive in faith. The Vimalakīrti Sutra states that, when one seeks the Buddhas’ emancipation in the minds of ordinary beings, one finds that ordinary beings are the entities of enlightenment, and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. It also states that, if the minds of living beings are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds."
(The structure of life and the potential functions are exactly the same as between two lands, pure or impure)
Mystic means to realise this truth that is simply the mysterious nature of our life from moment to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend or words express. When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither colour nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur.
The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both.
It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality. Myō is the name given to the mystic nature of life, and hō, to its manifestations. Renge, which means lotus flower, is used to symbolize the wonder of this Law. If we understand that our life at this moment is myō, then we will also understand that our life at other moments is the Mystic Law.4
This realization is the mystic kyō, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our life, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law."
Only people who take faith in this ultimate truth 'On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime' can attain Buddhahood in this life time. This is the core teaching of ichinen sanzen if you aren't open to this through faith you will miss out
Nichiren Buddhism is so unique it is OK to say its not Buddhism but because not ordinary Buddhism
This realization is the mystic kyō, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our life, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law."
DeleteWhat is this entity Noel? and also is this entity good or evil?
Noel, I believe this Gosho you have chosen, "On Ataining Buddhaood" is one of the disputed writings of Nichiren, in terms of authenticity.
DeleteIn any case, I think your conclusion here is a bit off--
"Only people who take faith in this ultimate truth 'On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime' can attain Buddhahood in this life time. This is the core teaching of ichinen sanzen if you aren't open to this through faith you will miss out"
The Lotus Sutra, and Nichiren's writings based on it do not make such pronouncements. And i would also point out that there are other Gosho that contain more substantive teachings on ichinen sanzen....
~Katie
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DeleteHi boys and girls. I would have to agree, there is nothing alien about attaining Buddhahood in one's present form, only that it is the most difficult principle to believe and understand.
DeleteRegarding the Gosho On Attaining Buddhaahood In Thiis Very Body, i believe is a genuine Gosho but it should be pointed out that it falls in the category of "early writing" where Nichiren had not completely shed the remnants of his training in Tendai original enlightenment thought.
"I would have to agree, there is nothing alien about attaining Buddhahood in one's present form, only that it is the most difficult principle to believe and understand."
DeleteI'm not saying that we cant attaining Buddhahood in one's present form. What I'm saying is that I don't believe that once we or the historical Shakyamuni Buddha attain Buddhahood that we maintain that state for the all eternity but if that was true that being would be Alien to us being the common mortals that we are. The Buddha and the common mortal would no longer be one
You seem to have all the answers why are you asking me. Why don't you tell us since you now know so much about Nichiren Buddhism's teachings. Do some research and see what you can come up with based on what Nichiren says. Thanks
ReplyDeleteBecause you are presenting from scriptures these verses to prove you position of you believes but I feel they are different from those verses, that is why I asked for your explanation of this verse.
ReplyDeleteSx
You prove to me why you feel I have been misrepresenting Nichiren's teachings based on what Nichiren says.
ReplyDeleteI know the answer but I will not reveal it to you unless you do your homework and prove to me that you are sincere
Np
Hi Stav,
ReplyDeleteThere is a wonderful teaching that describes the "entity of our life",
"The Entity of the Mystic Law", by Nichiren Daishonin. I will share a few key passages here.
" The mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure spect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion, If the pure aspect is operative , this is called enlightenment. enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realm of ordinary mortals ."
"These two aspects, the deluded and the enlightened, are indeed two different phenomena, and yet both are workings of the one principle, that is, the essential nature of phenomena, or true aspect of reality. It is like a piece of crystal, If the crystal is paced in the sun's rays, it will attract them and produce fire. But if the crystal is placed in the moon's rays, it will produce water. The crystal is a single entity, but the effects it produces differs according to circumstances. "
"The Buddha who is the entity of Myoho-renge-kyo of the "Life Span" chapter of the essential teachings, who is inhabiting subject and inhabited realm, life and environment, body and mind, entity and function, the Buddha internally endowed with the three bodies, he is to be found in the disciples and lay believers of Nichiren. Such persons embody the true entity of Myoho-renge-kyo, this is all due to meritorious workings that the spontaneous transcendental powers inherent in it display. Could anyone venture to doubt it? Indeed it cannot be doubted!"
Believing in the Lotus Sutra, reciting it, upholding it, propagating it and defending/protecting it, are the *good circumstances* that cause every aspect of our lives to manifest and exhibit the enlightened aspect of the true entity.
Based on Noel's own statements here and his off-putting attitude toward questions you raise, it seems that Noel does not *believe* this teaching. The defiled aspect of the true entity is operative when one disbelieves, or slanders the Lotus sutra.
~Karie
cont'd
Katie You are very quick to criticise without knowledge about things you know little of and to think the worst of the person that your are emotionally against and that threatens your sense of self that is your small ego that is deluded about the nature of who or what we are.
DeleteWhich is open to you for discussion with Stavros
You are making out that I don't understand that we are an eternally changing consciousness and at the same time an eternally unchanging consciousness but rather something fixed
Our Entity has a structure and potential with its aspects that are eternally changing and at the same time is eternally never changing - it paradoxical.
Stavros and I have different views of the nature of entity - structure and potential with its aspects or whatever he would prefer to call it but is about correctly identifying the nature of self and purpose of existence.
So can you answer his questions in a polite cordial fashion in calm unemotional way unlike how you have turned on me and others in this blog on many occasions when ever you get a bee under your bonnet
I cant help feeling hurt by someone who is supposed to share the same faith. You are always see the worst scenario and take the wrong way in all that I say
Noel, I am responding to what have written here-- to me and to Stav. I am overlooking the hurtful and disrespectful things you have said, focusing on the crux of the matter, which I believe to be responding with respect and thoughtfulness to someone who is seeking the teachings of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism.
DeleteWith all due respects for your own path and the differing views you share here, when it comes to sharing *the teachings* with someone who has not yet taken faith , I will follow Nichiren's example. My life is insignificant, the Law is supreme.
I can't help feeling dismayed that I would be labeled and disparaged HERE for propagating the teachings of Nichiren.
I have voiced disagreement here, but I don't *turn on anyone*- that is not my nature.
I respect the courage it took to publish your debate with Stav-- and wonder why you would not expect obstacles/devilsh functions from a cause of this magnitude? And I don't mean external influences, s your obstacles, Noel-- I mean kicking up the negative karma you can change with this practice. This is your opportunity- don't blow it ...
Best,
~Katie
Noel-- I mean kicking up the negative karma you can change with this practice. This is your opportunity- don't blow it"
DeleteThe same goes for you Katie, I know its not easy at times
"I can't help feeling dismayed that I would be labelled and disparaged HERE for propagating the teachings of Nichiren."
Sometimes you present the teachings with clarity and at other times you are way out of line(enlightened and deluded aspect) as I see it, and that you may agree or disagree with - your choice. We all have different capacities in understanding of the Lotus Sutra and Gosho.
One of the worst things is if we are slandering a correct teaching that we don't understand because of our arrogance of wanting to play teacher and having to be right all the time and telling others what they should do
We can see ourselves through the eyes of others and what I have written to you, Stavros or anyone else is as I see it.
We all have our views of Nichiren and others that we agree and disagree on but I wont be smothered by your comments without a reply even though this becomes tiring and at times and I cant be bothered. Sooner or latter I'll be gone just like Mark who may not have too much longer to live. In the mean time my wife and I pray for his health and well being and that he has many years ahead to flourish as he has been a good friend to me and many others over the years
Lest we forget why we are here. Mark is our host and we are his guests lets show him respect by showing one another respect. The same as Shakyamuni and Nichiren would show one another respect
Stavros and I go back a long way nearly 20 years, you shouldn't be so freaked out that I told him to do some homework to see what he could find out about his question before I gave him the answer, it was an expedient means and I knew you would jump in.
DeleteBut you don't need to act like such a Martyr and put me down as you are in the habit of doing. Just chill out before you jump on your high horses and perhaps have some common courtesy that you are short of at times and find out about what's going by asking me, before start accusing me.
I've been over what you are telling him and given him tons and tons of literature through Email and some books and plenty of talks on Nichiren Buddhism, so take this opportunity to learn about Vedanta because he would have to be one of the most knowledgeable people that you will probably ever meet in his field who would spend time sharing with Nichiren Buddhists
Noel lets now focus on the teachings only we are all on the journey so lets clear things up and lest see things honestly and accurately here; I am not claiming to be knowledgeable but whatever I know I will share and if in this discussions differences will come which is natural to come we can harmonize them and enlarge all of us from these discussions our consciousness, we all will benefit.
DeleteBut Noel the truth here is I am interested to hear about the teachings from another member of Nichiren apart from you on these teachings and hear the replies. What I disagree with you we already know but through this discussion I feel we can harmonize the different points and issues raised.
DeleteI understand from where you and Katie are coming. I am not an arbitrator but context is always important. In one sense, a twenty year relationship with a votary of the Sutra, criticizing the behavior and words of said votary must be taken with utmost self reflection. In the other sense, Noel has unsuccessfully converted his friend Stav, so some suggestions for realizing the goal should be welcome.
Delete
DeleteMy thoughts on where Noel is coming from- presented as direct quotes from this thread.
Noel: "Ask for Marks opinoin on this matter. I would like to hear his opinion on whether it is possible to regress once we attain buddhahood and i dont mean in the temporary sence as in the mutual possession of the ten worlds in eternal moment"
Mark: "I believe that since even Bodhisattvas can reach the stage of non-retrogression, Buddhas do not retrogress." (conclusion at the end of scriptural references presented by Mark.)
Noel: "I noticed in the quotes it never said 'Never Retrogress. This your opinion and others that share same capacity as yourself, so in this case Katie's statement applies to the whole lot of you.... You are all guilty as hell for own arbitrary opinions that you accuse me of. Wake up and have a good look at yourselves "
Noel: "Lest we forget why we are here. Mark is our host and we are his guests lets show him respect by showing one another respect. The same as Shakyamuni and Nichiren would show one another respect."
Now, Noel is fawning...
The above, denotes, imho , Noel's disbelief in True teachings presented-- EVEN by the host of the blog that he admonishes ME to RESPECT. Noel's disbelief , which is slander itself, then gives rise to finding fault with the practitioners who present documentary proof of the teaching that Noel does not *believe*.
It is correct practice of the Buddha's mercy to CORRECT Noel.
Is it not??
And to his longtime friend who has participated here in quest of understanding teachings shared by Noel, that he, Stav, has not been satisfied with--
Stav: "Because you are presenting from scriptures these verses to prove you position of you believes but I feel they are different from those verses, that is why I asked for your explanation of this verse. "
Noel: "You prove to me why you feel I have been misrepresenting Nichiren's teachings based on what Nichiren says.
I know the answer but I will not reveal it to you unless you do your homework and prove to me that you are sincere"**
** ?? Are there not sufficient references in Nichiren's writings that demonstrate correct behavior when sharing the teachings of the Lotus Sutra??
But worse:
NOEL: to longtime friend, seeking clarification of Nichiren's teachings : "You are a MENTAL CASE who clings to Hinayana provisional Mahayana teachings and Vedanta teachings,.."
AND: " This is what Nichiren says about the likes of you who are full of hatred towards the Lotus Sutra. The words you have written prove your scornful declaration of Nichiren Buddhism which has sealed your fate according to the scriptures unless you repent ."
DO we just need to change the title of the blog post?? Or are we to believe that we owe a debt of gratitude for reading about Noel's "Compassionate Conversion Practice" ???
~Katie
Mark says : "In one sense, a twenty year relationship with a votary of the Sutra, criticizing the behavior and words of said votary must be taken with the utmost self reflection."
DeleteI agree!! My argument, however, is based solely on Noel's own behavior and words that are not indicative of *a votary of the Lotus Sutra* He states his disbelief in Gosho quotes and sutra passages based on *his thoughts* - insisting there are *deeper meanings* and those who question him are *deficient in numerous ways* i.e.: "Katie You are very quick to criticise without knowledge about things you know little of and to think the worst of the person that your are emotionally against and that threatens your sense of self that is your small ego that is deluded about the nature of who or what we are. "
Nichiren states :"I, Nichiren, am not condemning others, I am merely pointing out the questionable places in their doctrines. If they want to get angry with at me, then let them!" (Letter To Shomitsu Bo)
"These people failing to recognize their own rudeness seem to think that i am rude." ( Reply to Yasaburo)
"When in public debate, although the teachings you advocate are perfectly consistent with the truth, you should NEVER on that account be impolite or abusive, or display a conceited attitude. Such conduct would be disgraceful." (The Teaching, Practice And Proof)
If I am in error refuting Noel's *teachings* and admonishing him for his behavior in this *public debate* forum, I sincerely hope, this will be pointed out to me, so that I may correct my error.
Thank you,
~Katie
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DeleteVery well said Sx
DeleteHi Katie, the "very well said was for the verses you quoted by Nichiren about proper behaviour, I replied under your message but after appeared under Noel's message, which was the vey opposite.
DeleteStav x
We all have to contend with our doubts. Believing in the Lotus sutra and Nichiren's teachings- EXACTLY as they are written, is a very personal endeavor and often times an intense struggle. I wage my struggles chanting Namu myoho renge kyo to my Gohonzon. I find that waging arguments against the teaching with the person who has shared the Gosho quote or a passage of the Lotus Sutra, based on my having difficulty understanding or believing it, is counter productive. I must arouse faith, believing that THIS is the portal to the Buddha's wisdom. Stav, I believe you have stated your belief regarding embracing the True Buddha's teaching here in one of your comments. I agree that we must approach the teachings with faith, accepting exactly what the Buddha taught.
ReplyDeleteWhen Noel says: "WE do not change our original structure when we become a Buddha and loosing our functions and becoming an Alien Entity this idea is insanity." He is showing both lack of understanding and disbelief of the teaching itself. There is no *fixed structure or function* . According to the Buddha, we are a temporary union of five components. The 10 factors , which describe life's physical , mental and spiritual functions. possess the true entity- and all are transformed, reflecting the enlightened aspect of the true entity when we believe in the Lotus Sutra and practice chanting the daimoku. Likewise, there is no fixed *self*, all life phenomena is in a constant state of flux. Our entire being is changed, transformed when we attain Buddhahood-- and the enlightened aspect of all of our life's functions and our environment manifest and exhibit their enlightened aspect. WE do not become an *alien entity*, as Noel points out, though the prospect of attaining Buddhahood may seem alien to some,-- even those who are chanting the daimoku of the Lotus Sutra,if they do not believe in or have pure faith in the Lotus Sutra, will harbor mistaken beliefs, like this.
To illustrate further, another statement Noel write (above), "Buddha's control their negative functions and activates their positive ones where the common mortal has less control over their negative functions and their positive functions are much less than a Buddha "
In this statement, Noel is describing *control* as a force of will, which is not the means by which we cause the enlightened aspect of our lives to become manifest. Again, Noel is implying a *self* that is constant and unchanging, maybe due to his attachment to the *small ego* ? This is the delusional thinking produced when the defiled aspect of the true entity of our minds is operative,
I am sorry for the way you are being addressed by Noel, and that he does not seem to appreciate all that you are teaching him-- at least, not yet. In any case, I certainly hope you are not submitting to this:
"I know the answer but I will not reveal it to you unless you do your homework and prove to me that you are sincere"
If you are, maybe I have assisted in answering the question he assigned for your homework, re: how Noel has misrepresented the teachings of Nichiren. I
Compassionate Conversion Practice??
I am astounded that you have remained engaged in this discussion with Noel, and very grateful that you have maintained a seeking mind toward the "teachings" he has shared.
Ay yi yi !!!
~Katie
As you said above nothing is fixed and we become definitely not an alien entity but I True entity and everything is transformed to that truth, and it will keep transforming to greater and greater perfection.
DeleteI don't want to react with emotions I like through reason and calm intelligence and consciousness to let the truth shine through all this, put the things on the table so to speak in a kind of scientific approach and for the love of truth; and I know also what is Noels confusion about the enlighten and deluded aspect which are part of the universe and Noel thinks to be complete he has to be both and have both at the same time or alternatively;
if some things first will be cleared through our discussions I would like to share some information about this issue which is metaphysical issue from the Vedanta perspective about the Cosmology and the Ontology of being and its eternity.
Stav x
"Noels confusion about the enlighten and deluded aspect which are part of the universe and Noel thinks to be complete he has to be both and have both at the same time or alternatively;"
DeleteI don't feel any confusion over the enlightened and deluded aspect but rather a crystal clear clarity that carries peace that surpasses all understanding.
The confusion that you cast on me is your projection that is coming from your perception that is coloured by the view that you see through
I believe that the mystic entity of the Middle Way is the ultimate reality
Entity = structure + function + aspects
Both the enlightened and deluded aspect exist at the same time in either a manifest or latent state
"What then does myō signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our life from moment to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend or words express.
When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither colour nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur.
The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality.'
On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime
DeleteHi Noel
You don't feel peace neither speak in peace; and what you say about Katie look at your self as well if you feel offended then you too don't offend;
It shows weakness from you the aggressive behaviour so lets continue instead in a more intelligent and mature way.
Lets put things in order here it will help us to build up concentrated energy and connection of our mind and then will start moving constructively forward with this conversation.
Ok Noel you speak about the entity but here the entity is not the True nature of mind but rather a function or the true nature with structures, function and different aspects together.
When you speak next " When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither colour nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur. "
The mind cannot be considered either to exist or not to exist. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality.'
This is the true nature of reality or the "crystal" example what Nichiren speaks of and not the entity which was described above.
This below again is not the entity which Katie and you send me in verse before which indicated the entity as all things; this verse of entity below is directed to the true nature of mind or Amala, right.?
This realization is the mystic kyō, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our life, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law."
I would like to ask something here who is making this translations? are these directly translation from Lotus sutra from Japanese to English? ( as far as I know there not available the original in Sanskrit verses of Lotus sutra, only the Chinese version) no offence but just I feel there are same words interplayed differently for different things and that makes it little bit unclear but if one looks at them carefully one may put things in proper order what is said and meant with that word in what context and what it indicates; So I think this is very important to be made clear because creates misunderstanding that's the reason why I asked both of you before, so we can communicate with clear mind about the teachings.
Stav x
Hi Stavros, I think that the Amala, as is the mind and everything else are functional aspects parts of the structure that are but a conglomerates of our Entity . Hey but this is probably just my arbitrary opinion compared to the golden words of the Buddha and Nichiren that Mark, Katie, Shinkei, Mudpie Boy and Greg may be able to explain.
Delete"Noel the truth here is I am interested to hear about the teachings from another member of Nichiren apart from you on these teachings and hear the replies."
So am I
"What I disagree with you we already know but through this discussion I feel we can harmonize the different points and issues raised."
I somehow don't think that will be easy but I admire you courage compassion resilience and noble intentions even though the differences may be insoluble
"I would like to ask something here who is making this translations? are these directly translation from Lotus sutra from Japanese to English? ( as far as I know there not available the original in Sanskrit verses of Lotus sutra, only the Chinese version) no offence but just I feel there are same words interplayed differently for different things and that makes it little bit unclear but if one looks at them carefully one may put things in proper order what is said and meant with that word in what context and what it indicates; So I think this is very important to be made clear because creates misunderstanding that's the reason why I asked both of you before, so we can communicate with clear mind about the teachings"
DeleteWho really knows who said what and when Stavros, it all depends on who we put our trust in and what makes sense to us at the time according to our capacity. They are all story's after all that have been made up by someone.
I have been using the SGI library which I consider as their most redeeming character.
http://www.nichirenlibrary.org/
Their literature is based on Nichiren Shoshu sect that have different interpretation to the Nichiren Shu sect who use goshos that they say are more authentic and also that the Nichiren Lotus sect that Mark is member or maybe the leader of agrees with
http://markrogow.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/our-procedure-for-receiving-and.html
Hi Noel lets get to business there is nothing to be gained with insults only bitter heart and bad memories
DeleteMaybe it is a time for me to share the vedantic percpective on those issues which we have discussed and maybe you and any one on this blog would like to comment or see how this fits of have any similarities with Nichiren Buddhism.
Part of it i wrote some time ago but i though to send it now:
I know where is the problem you are facing you are thinking when i say "fresh new individuals" how can they arise without previous cause , how can they be disconnected from the rest of the whole universal mind and its memory Alaya; if you take it that the Buddha after realizing his true nature and left his teachings how can one also access his true being and free him self by realizing his true nature and then through that experience entering into the widest consciousness free from the limitation of the body or other subtle bodies and then just becoming and abiding in that Original ground of Being Vastness then from That Place from That Existence plunging and becoming a microbe or whatever simple organism then like that i do agree that the True Original Buddha The Ground Of Being enters intentionally a portion of its Vastness becomes covered and limited and involved again!
When i say fresh new it is in the sense of a new enclosure with a Buddha spark formless spark containing in itself all the infinity and eternity and all the potentials and possibilities and thus in that sense it is never new in its essence but new in its "coming into a new enclosure" or formation from the most subtle formation to the most dense.
There are many planes prior to the physical universe; according to Vedanta there are very partial annihilations on the surface of the earth, then more greater but still partial annihilation's of the earth itself and the lower subtle physical and vital-mental planes; while the other planes with their worlds of the higher mental and pure mental-spiritual they still exist until the greatest annihilation takes place and then those too are temporary dissolved;
Now there are planes higher even then those and these are stated by the scriptures and the sages that they are eternally manifested without total annihilation; they are perfect formations of truth, of beauty, of power, of wisdom that is why they cannot be ( and they no need to be) destroyed but they are not static and monotonous there (destruction) or change is constant through different perfect varieties of expression and experience without the need to change their bodies or world with radical destroying of total "death" of total disintegration but changes with and through the selfsame bodies into eternity.
So when the Mahapralaya or the Great dissolution takes place and all the worlds the imperfect and the nearly perfect after their dissolution and rest they will appear in the same order as they disappeared, with the physical first to go and last to manifest ( simple example but just like when one falls into sleep slowly dissociated with the physical then with the vital-mental or astral of dreams and falls into deep sleep while the deepest Consciousness is still there at the background so will wake up gradually from dreamless to dreaming and then into physical consciousness. ) it will slowly gradually appear with the highest planes manifesting first then the intermediary and then the physicals elements and planets.
DeleteThe beings for example of the astral world its residents from previous cycle of manifestation will have to be dormant and wait for the appearance and creation of astral planes and then they will enter and manifest there, similarly the physical beings till the physical universe is ready made to sustain life will manifest there, first the beings from the lower species and the human will be waiting in its astral-causal dormant bodies till the life is ready after the land mammals to appear on earth. The more evolved humans may choose consciously when to take birth, so the human Buddhas and other enlighten t beings may remain in the high planes or the highest and not go through dissolution and latent state but be fully conscious in the higher spheres till the earth and all is ready for their coming.
Now you still may think how new individuality may arise without previous connection and continuation of the rest; but there is always continuation and connection since the fully awakened soul when free from limitation and is situated in ones true consciousness have awakened or is aware of the whole universal consciousness and i dont mean only the physical universe ( since there are many grades and layers and dimensions, from subtle physical, vital, vital-mental, pure mental, mental - spiritual, pure spiritual etc till the Ultimate transcendent and all in that Ultimate Being ) and thus what is needed it chooses to manifests; apart from the subconscious planes of Alaya or storage consciousness which each plane has its own there is a causal mind which contains all the ideas and possibilities to manifest not just memories of past stored actions but fresh ideas of course always in some relation to the rest of the universe; thus nothing is really disconnected or coming out of the blue without any relation the liberated reaching a stage of maturity several option are open to it depends of its line of progress and realization different possibilities presenting themselves at the same time for developed souls such as, - merger back, lingering for eternity enjoying the difference of unity, returning as a Master who can help, engaging with creation as a realized being, participating in the new adventure of transformation into eternity without individual end etc etc.
There are many possibilities of states of being after liberation and awakening of ones true nature in which one can be a passive center feeling the whole universe as ones body, or a universal Consciousness through any particular center active center but through all the centers or beyond the whole manifestation experiencing Absolute nakedness of Spirit .
all these states in themselves may not final; or it may keep all his adventure as a memory of enlighten completion of that series from the first evolved spark to a great spiritual personality ( but that created long journeyed evolved personality won't be devolved again ) but be a new emanation as a formless conscious spark into its first formation of causal body or idea body ( all entities of all dimensions are clothed first in an idea or causal body before entering the astral forms, similarly all physical bodies have causal as foundation and astral form before entering a physical bodies; and as stated before they exist prior and outlast the physical formations) in repeated cycles.
This is just a very brief description one can also look into the Vedic cycles of creations. Buddhas roots are in the Vedic cultute and thus the universe too with apsaras , gandarvas , raksasa, yaksas and the Gods and the lesser god's are also there in the Buddhist Sutras'
DeleteSo In Nichiren Buddhism from what i see there the entity in general is everything, the amala , the rest of the 8 consciousness & 5 skandas the environment, activities, qualities and all the rest through all the universe; this too in Vedanta would be described everything is God or the Divine since everything ultimately come from the Divine the lower nature the Higher nature and all in between. But also you have the expression the True Entity which is specifically the True nature of mind , like you mention Noel it has no form, no quality, no color etc..in its fundamental essence Reality; that would be the Spirit or the Atma or the Ground of being or Amala Eternally unchanging pure Substance and Essence.
That is briefly True Entity is the Amala or Spirit or if described in the sense also as manifested being and not just fundamental essence of being also as True Entity; in Vedanta or particularly in my line which i follow the Divine being or Divine nature in contrast with the lower nature which is part of the Divine but is not the True Divine in nature of true or enlighten manifestation.
That is why there has to be made distinction between the True nature and the lower shadow ignorant nature; as your scripture says delusion and enlightenment are two different things although both come from the same source ultimately but they are very different in manifestation. That why in Veda it is said the apara prakriti and the para paikriti , the lower nature and the higher nature; in Buddhism the 6 worlds belong to this lower nature and then begins the higher realm and the Highest; so here we are to manifest the higher nature the true nature which is in oneness and unity with the True Entity; if one has not finished with lower nature completely one has to be in this samsara of the lower 6 worlds as a ignorant are half enlighten being; when one is free completely from the lower nature there is no more falling back. and there are the possibilities and options available for one as stated above.
Now you may ask who or what will become these lower forms of life and the rest if the individuals can continue eternally manifesting greater and greater potentials; there is no fix amount of individuals neither fixed amount of energy of circulation; there is a new input and influx of beings and energies it is eternally growing just like our experiences of our mind and consciousness are ever increasing. Our fundamental nature is the same in everyone so That will manifest more beings and energy and nature for That is not only confined in bodies or formations only but exceeds and transcends all formations as well as envelops , permeates and contains all and everything ; but what you perceive as you now this individual limited being ones freed from the lower nature cannot comes back again on that level of experience as to experience it again but may come as stated above for higher reasons!
DeleteSo fundamentally speaking That True Entity and True Nature of Being will manifest all the different planes and levels of Consciousness through gradual or successive unfoldment again and again in different ways but that is not you , me or I; thats why the seers or Buddhas they dont say true I or real Me because the moment you say that there is a smell and shadow of ego that is why they say That or the Suchness because from the experience it is felt like that as That and in that experience as Sri Aurobindo also stated as well no pure i neither any idea of true self was felt there were no thoughts at all in that Ground of being state only the awareness of That and he ( said although he didnt think it at that time since it was completely beyond any concept of mental mind) was simply That and he was That and That was the only awareness aware of That ( and of course of all the formations but with different significance as seen from ordinary mind ).
So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate You so to speak than yes it is You who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation.
This is very brief but the idea of all these we were disusing is there.
Also i like to say that the vedas see and speak of other dimensions and other beings who are local and native of those planes in contrast with the humans from the physical universe who are evolutionary beings from species to species of forms and consciousness ( evolving through different forms of species the innate inherent Buddhahood ) to the highest of human form and being who can practice consciously the Dharma and this form is the door to Buddhahood and Divine life.
Stav x
I am writing this from my work and reading the mail i wrote i have some spelling mistakes as well some words not very well connected but the substance of the subject which i wanted to share more or less is there.
DeleteSx
"So fundamentally speaking That True Entity and True Nature of Being will manifest all the different planes and levels of Consciousness through gradual or successive unfoldment again and again in different ways but that is not you , me or I; thats why the seers or Buddhas they dont say true I or real Me because the moment you say that there is a smell and shadow of ego that is why they say That or the Suchness because from the experience it is felt like that as That and in that experience as Sri Aurobindo also stated as well no pure i neither any idea of true self was felt there were no thoughts at all in that Ground of being state only the awareness of That and he ( said although he didnt think it at that time since it was completely beyond any concept of mental mind) was simply That and he was That and That was the only awareness aware of That ( and of course of all the formations but with different significance as seen from ordinary mind )." -- Stav Hatz
Delete"Because venison is tasty, the deer is hunted and killed; because oil can be obtained from the turtle, the turtle loses its life. If a woman is beautiful, there will be many who envy her. The ruler of a nation has much to fear from other nations, and the life of a man with great wealth is constantly in danger. One who abides by the Lotus Sutra will inevitably attain Buddhahood. Therefore, the devil king of the sixth heaven, the lord of this threefold world, will become intensely jealous of anyone who abides by the sutra. This devil king, we are told, attaches himself like a plague demon to people in a way that cannot be detected by the eye. Thereafter, like persons who gradually become drunk on fine old wine, rulers, fathers and mothers, wives and children gradually become possessed by him and are filled with jealousy toward the votary of the Lotus Sutra. And that is precisely the situation we face today in the world around us. Because I chant Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, I have for over twenty years been driven from place to place. Twice I have incurred the wrath of the authorities, and in the end I have retired to this mountain.
Here I am surrounded by four mountains, Shichimen to the west, Tenshi to the east, Minobu to the north, and Takatori to the south. Each is high enough to touch the sky, and so steep that even flying birds have trouble crossing them. In their midst are four rivers called Fuji, Haya, Oshira, and Minobu. In the middle, in a ravine some hundred yards or so across, I have built my hut. I cannot see the sun in the daytime or the moon at night. In winter there is deep snow, and in summer the grass grows thick. Because so few people come to see me, the trail is very hard to travel. This year, especially, the snow is so deep that I have no visitors at all. Knowing that my life may end at any time, I put all my trust in the Lotus Sutra. In these circumstances, your letter was particularly welcome. It seemed almost like a message from Shakyamuni Buddha or from my departed parents, and I cannot tell you how grateful I was. Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, Namu-myoho-renge-kyo."
cont...
DeleteOvercoming hardships is a major theme in Buddhism. How can one explain the process of overcoming hardships if one doesn't discuss the hardships? Openly discussing hardships in SGI is considered complaining and a sign of weak faith. Were Nichiren in the SGI he would be vilified for being negative and for expressing his feelings:
‘My body is worn out and my spirit suffers from the daily debates, monthly persecutions, and two exiles. That is why for the last seven or eight years illnesses of aging have assailed me yearly, though none has led to a crisis’ (WND-2, 949).”
“The northern part is Mount Minobu, the southern, Mount Takatori, the western, Mount Shichimen, and the eastern, Mount Tenshi. They are like boards set up on all four sides. Around the outside of this area are four rivers. The Fuji River runs north to south and the Haya River runs west to east behind this area. In front is the Hakiri River, which runs west to east, and its tributary, which has a waterfall and is called the Minobu River. You might suppose that Eagle Peak had been moved from central India and set down here, or that Mount T’ien-t’ai had been brought from China.
In the midst of these four mountains and four rivers is a flat area no broader than the palm of one’s hand, and here I have built a little hut to shield me from the rain. I have peeled bark off trees to make my four walls, and wear a robe made of the hides of deer that died a natural death. In spring I break off ferns to nourish my body, and in autumn I gather fruit to keep myself alive. But since the eleventh month of last year the snow has been piling up, and now, into the first month of the new year, it goes on snowing. My hut is seven feet in height, but the snow outside is piled up to a depth of ten feet. I am surrounded by four walls of ice, and icicles hang down from the eaves like a necklace of jewels adorning my place of religious practice, while inside my hut snow is heaped up in place of rice.
Even in ordinary times people seldom come here, and now, with the snow so deep and the roads blocked, I have no visitors at all. So at the moment I am atoning for the karma that destines me to fall into the eight cold hells, and, far from attaining Buddhahood in this present life, I am like the cold-suffering bird. I no longer shave my head, so I look like a quail, and my robe gets so stiff with ice that it resembles the icy wings of the mandarin duck.
"To such a place, where friends from former times never come to visit, where I have been abandoned even by my own disciples, you have sent these vessels, which I heap with snow, imagining it to be rice, and from which I drink water, thinking it to be gruel. Please let your thoughts dwell on the effects of your kindness. There is much more I would like to say.”
Without this part the truth it is incomplete ""So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate You so to speak than yes it is You who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation.
DeleteSx
It is important Mark the Sampradaya as it is called in India the discipleship succession and unbroken succession of continuity of teachings from the founder; i know is is not always possible that a qualified successor of the same caliber as the founder or establisher of the teachings can be available and thus sometimes as it is said when there is no horse donkey will do just to carry the continuation of the teachings; but at least and very important it is that these scriptures and verses and texts have clear commentaries so that there is no room for adverse interpretation and from these comments made obviously by those who are enlighten and are accepted by all the followers to be such, then from these one should draw the true purport of the teachings with its conclusions and the supporting reference so that not any Dick ,Tom and Harry would interpret them otherwise.
DeleteStav x
ReplyDeleteHello Katie,
Some of these verses Noel has send me previously but I have interpret them in the light of my realization and in the light of Vedanta ; I could not get a clear explanation from Noel about them; I would like to get your explanation on these verses.
" The mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure aspect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion, If the pure aspect is operative , this is called enlightenment. enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realm of ordinary mortals ."
"These two aspects, the deluded and the enlightened, are indeed two different phenomena, and yet both are workings of the one principle, that is, the essential nature of phenomena, or true aspect of reality. It is like a piece of crystal, If the crystal is paced in the sun's rays, it will attract them and produce fire. But if the crystal is placed in the moon's rays, it will produce water. The crystal is a single entity, but the effects it produces differs according to circumstances. "
My question here is what is the Nature of the "crystal" itself , the pure naked nature of this Essential True nature of Reality in Itself?
"The Buddha who is the entity of Myoho-renge-kyo of the "Life Span" chapter of the essential teachings, who is inhabiting subject and inhabited realm, life and environment, body and mind, entity and function, the Buddha internally endowed with the three bodies, he is to be found in the disciples and lay believers of Nichiren. Such persons embody the true entity of Myoho-renge-kyo, this is all due to meritorious workings that the spontaneous transcendental powers inherent in it display. Could anyone venture to doubt it? Indeed it cannot be doubted!"
Also this one Katie, so this entity in this description is the entity in its fundamental essence the Amala, also the whole realm which it inhabits , the environment, the very life and function of everything, the body mind, the three internally bodies-kayas, everything in general is this entity, the whole existence, this is what I am getting from this verse; But these also can be found in everyone and everything but not perceived as such by non believers or non practitioners but still they are everywhere in all and as everything and all, right?
Stav x
Stav, your questions go to the heart of our predicament, in terms of the limitations of our karma laden minds! I'll do my best to describe my understanding-- it will take longer to find exact passages to share.
Delete"My question here is what is the Nature of the "crystal" itself , the pure naked nature of this Essential True nature of Reality in Itself?"
I lack the capacity to perceive the True Entity directly, which accords with the Buddha's prediction for the time we are living in.
T'ien T'ai, whom you know was the great teacher who was able to directly perceive the 3,000 realms in a single life moment recognized the means for attaining Buddhahood in one's present form and in this lifetime was indeed contained in the Lotus Sutra. Practicing with faith in the Lotus Sutra now as Nichiren taught, I am able to experience and observe the *presence and function* of the Mystic Law, the True entity.
Two things I can say with confidence about the *nature* of the true entity, 1) It is ever present and 2) It is constant, consistent, the same--it is always thus...
While it may seem an impediment that we cannot directly perceive this Mystic Law, the true entity and ultimate true reality, there is no difference in the benefit we gain and the benefit gained by those whose wisdom was such that they could perceive it directly. That is to say, the purification of our senses, the realization of this pure aspect within us and the effects we perceive around us are in complete accord with the Buddha's golden words in the Lotus Sutra. The practice is key- chanting the daimoku, study, sharing the teaching, upholding and protecting the teaching.
"Also this one Katie, so this entity in this description is the entity in its fundamental essence the Amala,..."?
The 9 levels of consciousness are contained in one of the five components that comprise a single sentient living being. Each possesses the true entity. It would be inaccurate to ascribe the true entity itself to any component of our existence - the true entity has both an enlightened and a defiled aspect that manifests according to the *function* of each of the five components, of which consciousness is one component.
This is the crux, I think, of your dismay over *being at the whim of circumstances*-- yet, this is undeniably our predicament. there are myriad ways to bolster ourselves against adverse influences, but ultimately, the only means we have to acquire a diamond like state of existence is to directly influence the true entity contained in everything. This is the reason the daimoku of the Lotus Sutra is supreme , unsurpassed,-- ever present and consistent. It is through the experience of daily practice, over time, that these profound teachings become manifest as one's reality.
Practice [as I have already described in part] is based on faith in these teachings. The actual proof one receives becomes the basis for belief and understanding of the teachings. I personally think this is why the practice is so difficult for most people. It is more natural to proceed from understanding, than to embark with faith and gain understanding. The latter appears foolish to most people, though it follows the early stages of our development as children, when we gain more knowledge in a shorter period than we ever will again :-)
For me, it resonates with the language and metaphors the Buddha employed; that we are his children, who have become sick and The True Buddha is both father and mother who rescues us and leaves this good medicine to cure all of our ills.
Best,
~Katie
Katie, The 9 levels of consciousness are contained in one of the five components that comprise a single sentient living being. Each possesses the true entity. It would be inaccurate to ascribe the true entity itself to any component of our existence - the true entity has both an enlightened and a defiled aspect that manifests according to the *function* of each of the five components, of which consciousness is one component.
DeleteBut the True entity in the 9 consciousness's would be the 9th only since all the other 8 constantly are changing, also the five skandas you mention also only the consciousness is unchangeable ( if it indeed means the Consciousness itself and not a state of Consciousness) while the other 4 are changeable and cant be the true entity..
I also as you will see have made some remarks and questions on Noels mail for discussion.
Stav x
Ahh Stav, You have struck the very cord that causes me to return to Nichiren's writings; a reference to T'ien-t'ai's commentary on the Lotus Sutra, " Great Concentration and insight"
DeleteIn the Gosho, "The Real Aspect of the Gohonzon", Nichiren writes:
" The first volume of the Great Concentration and Insif=ght says, 'How does one hear, believe in, and practice the perfect teaching to attain perfect enlightenment?' The first volume On "Great concentration and Insight' says, ' To believe in the perfect teaching means to awaken faith through doctrine and to make faith the basis for practice." and in the same Gosho:
"The commentaries of T'ien-t'ai and Miao-lo make it perfectly clear that faith is the cornerstone."
I humbly admit that I cannot directly perceive the true entity, nor can I directly perceive the functions of the 9 levels of consciousness, but since The Buddha did not teach *consciouness* itself as the True Entity, I have never pondered the question you raise.
From my present level of understanding, I defer to the strict definition of the 9th level of consciousness, called amala-consciousness, which remains free from all karmic impurity. It is defined as the basis for all life's functions and is identified with the *true aspect of life*, or the Buddha nature.
Therefore, I would conclude that the amala consciousness constitutes the reason we can believe in the Lotus Sutra. I would also add, based on actual proof of my own faith and practice, the this pure and eternal level of consciousness is enhanced by the actions one takes to evoke the enlightened aspect of the True entity-; that chanting daimoku with a mind of belief and faith in the Lotus Sutra causes the the other 8 levels of consciousness to approximate the function of the amala. I say this due to the undeniable actual proof ( personal experience) of purification of one's senses , thoughts, cognition, judgments about the external world , awareness of self and the ability to distinguish good from evil-- I can perceive that the True entity, or Mystic Law is NEEDED for this to occur, which is to say that the amala , though pure and unchanging,cannot transform the lower levels of consciousness itself.
I believe that this would explain why meditation and study alone, are not sufficient ; that the extent of the impure alaya, karmic "storehouse" has rendered us incapable of achieving enlightenment through any means other than faith in and practice of the Lotus, as taught by Nichiren Daishonin.
I would also have to admit, I have found no reason to seek any other means :-)
Best,
Katie
Excellent Katie!
Delete
DeleteHello Katie,
When I say Consciousness I mean Pure Consciousness or fundamental consciousness strictly speaking in contrast to the functions or states of consciousness which are described as the eight other 'consciousness' we may say that that all the eight have consciousness but really it is because of the Ninth the True Self or True Consciousness that the other exist and get activated and exhibit a consciousness; it is like a fire which enters metal and makes it luminous and fiery appearing as being fire itself but is only permeated and activated by it. I don't see the reason why the 9 consciousness cannot be perceived they are objective to us of course we cant see the whole subconscious of the 8th and the superconscious totally but we get glimpses and some awareness of it ( speaking more for my self ) others may live more with greater awareness of the them while others are oblivious living only outwards and on the surface. From my understanding of my line of practice but also from the below quotes it seems clear that any purification of any transformation springs and comes from the Amala to the rest of the members of our being.
Through the practice it gets "activated" or awakened and comes forward; we don't really create it it is always there as it has been many times said " the Buddha nature doesn't increase neither decrease, neither praise makes it better or purer neither blames make worst or defiled. It is Perfect unlimited containing all the potentialities and possibilities of manifestation. I believe from my experience and the testimony of scriptures that by the practice one don't makes it better or improves it the True Nature - Amala - True Entity but just creates the suitable condition for It to manifest or being perceived.
Of course you have the faith that only through the Chanting of the Lotus sutra and its teachings can one activate it; I believe through experience that can be and is activated by other means as well but that is another subject from the present focus of the entity or true nature of mind ( which this word is inter-used for the essential Amala and also for the whole being , environment and function which I was trying to separate them into their context putting things in order and gradually coming to see what is the true teaching which is presented here and where comes because of that the misreading and the thus different conclusions from yours and Noel's ).
"The most fundamental layer of consciousness is the ninth or Amala consciousness. Unstained by the workings of karma, this consciousness represents our true, eternal self. The revolutionary aspect of Nichiren Buddhism is that it seeks to directly bring forth the energy of this consciousness--the enlightened nature of the Buddha--thus purifying the other, more superficial layers of consciousness."
Because the eighth consciousness transcends the boundaries of the individual, merging with the latent energy of one's family, one's ethnic group, and also with that of animals and plants, a positive change in this karmic energy becomes a "cogwheel" for change in the lives of others. As SGI President Daisaku Ikeda writes, "When we activate this fundamentally pure consciousness, the energy of all life's good and evil karma is directed toward value creation; and the mind or consciousness...of humankind is infused with the life current of compassion and wisdom." Nichiren identified the practice of chanting the phrase Nam-myoho-renge-kyo as the basic means for activating the ninth consciousness in our lives.
Stav x
Hi Katie ,
DeleteJust to correct what I wrote and didn't intend to sound like that " I don't see the reason why the 9 consciousness cannot be perceived they are objective to us of course we cant see the whole subconscious of the 8th and the superconscious totally but we get glimpses and some awareness of it ( speaking more for my self ) others may live more with greater awareness of the them while others are oblivious living only outwards and on the surface." The 6 can be easily objective to us the 7th needs reflection stand back so to speak and look at it this too can be though subjective brought objectively by observation through inner consciousness as well as the 8th consciousness which whatever it brings more on the surface and also through calmness and stillness of mind and through a witness-like perception can become to a certain way objective to our inner consciousness, the 9th consciousness is not objective you cannot come out of your self neither place it in front of you in any objective way so it is subjective but not in the way like our psychological mental-emotional changeable states which can be viewed as subjective-objective content but 9th Consciousness or True Consciousness Self-Amala is truly speaking Super Subjective or the Super Subject.
Stav x
Hi Stav,
DeleteI have very little knowledge about the practice of meditation other than basic forms that are described in techniques used in alternative/complimentary nursing. I am referring to biofeedback, relaxation, visualization, etc. My prior admission, regarding not having the ability to directly perceive *how the levels of consciousness function*, is partially due to my lack of knowledge, but is also a statement that reflects my faith in the teachings of Nichiren. In " The Doctrine of Three Thousand Realms in a Single Moment of Life" (1258) Nichiren states:
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?"
"In the 'Teacher of the Law' chapter of the Lotus sutra, the Buddha states "Medicine King, though there may be many persons, those still living in the household and those who have left it, who practice the way of the bodhisattva, if they are not willing to see, hear, read, recite, copy, embrace, and offer alms to this Lotus Sutra, then you should know that such persons are not yet practicing the bodhisattva way in a fitting manner. But if there are those who will listen to this sutra, then they are capable of practicing the bodhisattva way in a fitting manner." "
Nichiren continues:
"If the sutra meant that one could attain Buddhahood through contemplation of the mind alone, then why would it speak of "seeing, hearing, reading, reciting"? This sutra makes "hearing" the sole basis of practice."
"And I, Nichiren, declare that these words, "whether one accepts or rejects," "though one may comply with or go against them," constitute a passage worthy to be engraved on the heart.This is what the Lotus Sutra means when it says, "If there are those who hear the Law[then, not a one will fail to attain Buddhahood]." Here it speaks of those "who hear the Law." but if it were referring to those who attain Buddhahood through meditation, it would say, "If there are those who meditate on the Law."
"When we chant this Myoho-renge-kyo, the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest. Our bodies and minds are comparable to the storehouse of the teachings, and the word myo is comparable to the seal [that permits the opening of the storehouse]. "
There is much more depth and detail in the "The Correct Method of Contemplation"- "Determining the Similarities and differences between the Lotus Sutra and the Teaching of Concentration and Insight"- Written by Nichiren 1274, addressed to Sairen-bo, a learned priest. The core of this teaching requires an understanding of the difference between the theoretical and essential teachings of the Lotus Sutra. I think you will find greater clarity in Nichiren's doctrinal treatises, than in writings like, "On Attaining Buddhahood."
I think it is also helpful to note that,Nichiren follows one teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha, and thus adheres strictly to the one teaching Shakyamuni himself claimed was superior to all other sutras he had preached or would preach, the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren's own life was a testament to the Truth found only in the Lotus Sutra.
I have studied Nichiren's writings from a mind of faith, based on my response to "hearing the Law", which I appreciate as a vastly different perspective from those who have studied and practiced other forms of Buddhism and teachings such as you are sharing here. My understanding is that, due to our lacking the capacity for wisdom and the quotes I shared above, both referencing the Buddha's golden words; we must keep faith foremost in our minds, and not be swayed by doubt or disbelief, if we aspire to attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime.
Beat,
~Katie
Hello Katie,
DeleteBuddha Sakyamuni in his time and Nichiren in his time had to combat different forms of teachings; but those are only of those of what they were aware of in there own time and geographical area. There are other spiritual and religious paths which were not at their time neither in there locality and thus they dont mentioned them neither are aware of them.
Till now i haven't mentioned to you any other forms of Buddhism but only your Nichiren Buddhism and the 2 quotes by Ikeda which is from your Nichiren Buddhism.
You speak of listening the Lotus sutra , yes listening is the first but then there is contemplation on the teachings heard and practical application, mere hearing won't do without the others.
You are mentioning meditation as something in sufficient but that depends on what one meditates and on what teachings; I have shared little bit of some teachings and my understanding from the light of my teachings and i dont have any contradiction of the essential teaching of Nichiren. You are speaking of the listening of the teachings of the lotus sutra and chant which is also a chanting which is a form of meditation.
What is important is that the teachings be true; if Lotus scriptures speaks about the existence and the purpose of life and there truths in them are universal then any serious seeker of truth will recognize their truth; but lets not limit the truth only to the scripture of the Lotus recitation; What you do is great Katie to want to realize and live in grater truth of consciousness and life but just be open for the possibility that there may be and are other lines of approach to the universal truth which we all share and live in.
After all our very Life the Essence of our existence is within all and we are all part of that existence and there is no single organization under certain banner who posses the truth in an exclusive monopoly. I am saying this because thats how and where all the sectarian and separatist mentality comes from. It is good for one to love and be loyal to what one has accepted in faith and experience and follow but it is not right neither true that other paths dont walk and live the Universal teachings.
We have to realize soon or later what we listen at first and follow; what you indicate that other practices apart from chanting nam moyho renge kyo cannot access the truth and full Realization of Buddhahood and you do this chanting and then you say " that you cant perceive directly the 9 levels of consciousness, that would mean then that you cant perceive the teachings of the 3000 realms in single moment of life either and which you have only faith in" but others can who dont chant the exact formula nam myoho renge kyo but are aware of the truth which the Lotus Sutra speaks without reading the Lotus Sutra.
DeleteIt has happened many times in the life of realized beings when they read or were presented with certain teachings they just confirmed ( what the teachings taught ) what they had already realized just expressed in particular different way or very similar or same way.
If the truth is Universal and is perceivable by some then it can be perceived by others as well; the essence of life is within us we are in life and part of life and it is within the reach of everyone to access with the right training; and there is not only one method as you suppose and in that i am inclined to disagree.
When i went through Zhiyis ( of Tian Tai ) teachings about the 3000 realms at single moment of life it was mentioned that was mainly for the understanding and contemplation in that account. It might have been presented in different number greater or smaller then 3000 depends on the detail of the description of the different levels of consciousness; as i mention in Vedanta for example the are 14 worlds and not 9 consciousnesses of categorical function but 11 and so with this calculation the realms would be more then 3000.
What i am trying to say is the truth what these teachings try to convey is the most important rather them some fixed numbered structure.
And so what is important is the truth of what the scripture of lotus Sutra teaches; if it is a universal truth it has to be experienced by everyone under the guidance of those who have seen and live in that truth.
Katie you have mentioned few times about the concept of 3000 realms to be frank this is perceivable by all the serious practitioners it is not a unique perception by Tiantai or Nichiren; the number 3000 and the way it is expressed as a structure that is unique to them but as the truth which that idea of 3000 realms tries to convey which is of all these things taking place in the universe and in our selves in this very moment; Christ and other realized beings were aware of this happening; if you look at the brief description of the Vedantic view of the universe which i shared in mail to Noel and the beings it is evident how we are interconnected and influencing each other and so the influences from different dimensions , from our own external environment, from other beings visible and invisible, from the collective earth consciousness and subconsciousness, from genetic inheritance of the unconscious beginnings of this present cycle of material universe, genetic inheritances from genes and environmental and social consciousness, from our own subconscious mind, from our own conscious mind what we broadcast and receive through our senses, bodies and mind etc..these are all happening right now and pass through us right now and influence us;
Deletethat is why discrimination and the practice of contemplation on the teachings is vital otherwise we are like a mall a market place we are a market anything and everything to enter and move us like puppets.
Through practice we can be open to higher consciousness and inspiration and thus be protected from hostile attacks and low consciousness and allow only things which are favorable to enter for our development of divine nature and awakening to a greater light and consciousness rejecting all that is opposed to this striving and aspiration and with that higher and higher consciousness and its purifying effect we can rise higher and higher in illumination and realized experience and from that consciousness with its light bring that light on or bringing into that light all the lower elements and states of consciousness and transforming them into the consciousness of that Higher realization the total structure.
I think we have to universalized our religion or spiritual path and practice that will unite us in this world all under one universal religion which non the less has its different aspects of emphasis and teachings in that one universality.
Stav x
Hi Stav,
DeleteI have been pondering your last paragraph --I think we have to universalized our religion or spiritual path and practice that will unite us in this world all under one universal religion which non the less has its different aspects of emphasis and teachings in that one universality."
and reorienting myself to the purpose of our dialogue, the questions I wanted to answer as a practitioner of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism.
What is the highest teaching? What is the purpose for practicing and propagating it?
Again, I defer to Nichiren:
"Now what is known as a teaching of importance is nothing special. One who can, in accordance with the time, discern without the slightest error what is important both for oneself and for the country is a person of wisdom.The Buddha is called worthy of respect because he ponders the past and knows the future. Nothing surpasses the wisdom of knowing the three existences. Although they were not Buddhas, because sages and worthies such as Nagarjuna, Vasubandhu, T'ien-t'ai, and Dengyo. though not nearly to the same degree as the Buddha, generally understood the affairs of the three existences, their names have been passed on into the future.
Ultimately, all phenomena are contained within one's life, down to the last particle of dust. the nine mountains and the eight seas are encompassed in one's body, and the sun, moon, and myriad stars are found in one's life. We. however, are like a blind person who is incapable of seeing images reflected in a mirror, or like an infant who has no fear of war or fire. The teachings such as those of the non-Buddhist writings and those of the Hinayana and provisional Mahayana Buddhist scriptures all partially explain the phenomenons inherent in one's life. THEY DO NOT EXPLAIN THEM AS THE LOTUS SUTRA DOES." (The Mongol Envoys. WND vol 1. p.628-9)
I do not contemplate the nine consciousnesses, nor would I employ my wisdom derived from faith to seek to directly perceive the nine consciousnesses because Nichiren has specifically addressed this as worthless endeavor in The Latter Day. Contemplating the *teachings* for our Time, is chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo with a mind of faith.
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?" ( "The Doctrine of 3,000 Realms in a single Moment of Life")
~Katie
cont'd--
DeleteWhat is the highest teaching? One that is universally available to
all, regardless of one's capacity. -
"Even an ignorant person can receive blessings by serving someone who expounds the Lotus Sutra-- But how great is the difference between the blessings received when a sage chants the daimoku and the blessings received when we chant it? To reply, ONE IS IN NO WAY SUPERIOR TO THE OTHER. the gold that a fool possesses is in no way different than the gold that a wise man possesses, a fire made by a fool is the same as a fire made by a wise man" ("The fourteen Slanders")
Nichiren states. "... those who share in and believe in the Lotus Sutra are entities of that mystic sutra." ("The entity of The Mystic Law")
""When we chant this Myoho-renge-kyo, the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest. Our bodies and minds are comparable to the storehouse of the teachings, and the word myo is comparable to the seal [that permits the opening of the storehouse]. "
"The most important thing in practicing the Buddhist teachings is to follow and uphold the Buddha's golden words, not the opinions of others." and--
"Now, in the Latter Day of the Law, who is carrying out the practice of shakubuku in strict accordance with the Lotus Sutra? Suppose someone, no matter who, should unrelentingly proclaim that THE LOTUS SUTRA ALONE VAN LEAD PEOPLE TO BUDDHAHOOD AND THAT ALL OTHER SUTRAS , FAR FROM ENABLING THEM TO ATTAIN THE WAY, ONLY DRIVE THEM INTO HELL. Observe what happens should that person try to refute the teachers and the doctrines of all other schools. the three powerful enemies will arise without fail." ( "On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings.")
I think that right here in this thread, there is actual proof of this teaching of Nichiren's--- see Noel's responses to Mark and to me.
Unless we are focused on the teaching, "This wonderful Law, which is foremost and unexcelled..." we are not discussing the profound truth of the Lotus Sutra-- and missing the greatest implication, that "This law [myoho-renge-kyo] should in fact be the basis of prayers"-- ("Those Initially Aspiring To The Way")
No other information is useful---
~Katie
Entity = structure + function + aspects
ReplyDeleteLife simultaneously possesses the potential for both good and evil, and even when manifesting one, it is never devoid of the potential for the other
ReplyDeleteThe mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure aspect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion. If the pure aspect is operative, this is called enlightenment. Enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realms of ordinary mortals.
These two aspects, the deluded and the enlightened, are indeed two different phenomena, and yet both are workings of the one principle, that is, the essential nature of phenomena, or the true aspect of reality
https://www.facebook.com/MasteryofSelf/photos/a.968490343243985.1073741828.968448119914874/1050747098351642/?type=3&theater
Potentiality is a possibility which may turn to actuality under certain conditions but when the conditions are removed and are absent then the potentiality too doesn't exist;
Deletecan the conditions be removed fully like the ignorance from a human being? and from ordinary ignorant or half enlighten being to turn into a fully divine or fully Enlighten being?
This is the topic which was discussed by us before; and from the Scriptures of Nichiren Buddhism and from the line of spiritual path and scriptures which are my main following and practice both testify "non-retrogression no more falling back into ignorance, full freedom full enlightenment;
Just like the sun when has fully risen and the darkness or half light has been vanished the fear and ignorance of the mistaking the rope for a snake is removed and everything is seen as it is; the actuality and potentiality too are vanished!
Sx
“But stop, Shariputra, I will say no more. Why? Because what the buddhas have achieved is the rarest and most difficult-to-understand Law.
DeleteThe true aspect of all phenomena can only be understood and shared between buddhas.
This reality consists of the appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning to end.” Lotus Sutra: 2 Expedient Means
"The true aspect of all phenomena can only be understood and shared between buddhas" then you have no say and I have no say right?
ReplyDeleteBut still we can share what we know from the scriptures and from our own little or whatever degree of personal realization.
The word potential could mean also latent; whatever is latent will arise sooner or later under right conditions and stimulations; you say life contains the potential for both good and evil but that depends what kind of life is that , of an ignorant person or fully enlighten person. Do you mean to say that Buddha can manifest evil? or if he cant then that would appear a limitation of free will and choice making him no better then automaton a mechanical unthinking unfeeling living;
Another question do the Buddhas thinking evil thoughts? Obviously not because soon or later they will have to act on them and that is not the case from what we can see from their deeds, from their words , from their love and affection and compassionate wisdom it shows they don't harbor such thoughts.
But obviously they are aware of them because they exist in the environment and are manifested through beings; so they may know of them and even think of them as to the ways to deal with them and transformed them but they are not their own;
the lusts and greed's and violence's and all sort of evil things born of the ignorance are not their cherishing's and something which they secretly seek and hunger for; if there was still something in the Buddha which under association of lusty men, greedy men, evil minded men could something be triggered or awakened as something which was still there latent or potential then that would mean that the "Buddha" has still work to do on himself and thus he is not truly a Buddha.
If the Buddha still caries the potential he cannot be trusted and he cannot make assurances like these " “Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others.”
“I am the only person”—
Everything comes from latent karma or seeds , if they are burned in the fire of wisdom of true enlightenment then they cannot sprout anything any more they are all eradicated. The potential for any recurrence is gone and finished; there is no potential for them to appear; as I pointed before if there is something in a person which touches somewhere in him/her something which arises and is evoked it means that that is still there latent a potential to manifest. We can see in our lives too in more familiar things how we behaved in our early younger years and how we are now and how some things are impossible or unthinkable for us now to do; or how certain things and desires meant so much to us at sometimes and now we may look back and think how foolish and insignificant some things were and how could we have been like that before and how certain things have lost their appeal and attraction to us that we never think of them again, and nothing is awakened in us again in there presence or their mentioning.
ReplyDeleteOr how many time we see people coming with something some issue or with some desires and tastes that they don't mean nothing to us they don't even touch us in the slightest; there is nothing in us left of that kind as even a potential anymore; You may argue that if someone who don't have at first an attraction or taste or desire for something by repeated association he'she may develop a taste a craving and attachment as result; that is true but when you went through certain experiences again and again and you saw what they really are and what they do to you and after always live you kind of empty and not truly fulfilled then you loose the taste and attraction for them; then probably as happens with all of us we seek a higher taste a higher meaning in life, something more real , substantial and true. something that will fill us and bring lasting joy; and we are in search and open and come to spiritual life seeing the vanity of the way of the world; and so gradually through practice we gain more calmness, purity clear perception , inner strength, inner joy and so many other things that all the rest falls away; and if we proceed as we do further and further on this path then a time will come and is gradually coming that all the latent seeds and any possibility of recurrence too will vanish.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteSo how can a Buddha be influenced and attracted to things he/she left behind as worthless compare to this attainment? what can pull him down or away from that attainment? a potential? a possibility? an accidental slip? a choice.??
The full sun has risen in him and can see all clearly the illusions and vanities, the possibilities and potentialities and the truths and enlightenments of a Beautifully True and Harmonious Being and Living..
According to Vedanta in the Highest state there is not even the potential. So you may say then how these things the deluded or lower beings and consciousness manifest? The water from the clouds is pure till it touches the ground and gets muddy or soiled; (
For some Christians this is a creation of God that went wrong , it was not intended like this but the devil spoiled everything.)
So the potential for anything begins the moment a "portion" of That enters into manifestation That in itself is always Free but wilfully, intentionally, purposefully and not because of some latent evil or latent ignorance or accident or mistake enters into formation and gets covered by it and affected by the environment and then al the accumulation and latencies and potentials come into play.
The Buddha says the cause of suffering is because of Trishna or thirst once you are already dipped in , Krishna in the Gita uses different expression and says the cause of suffering is ignorance, fundamental ignorance of ones being as an Eternal Spiritual Being.
So one now in this cosmic "play" has to disentangle oneself from all this maya or apparent illusion and reinstate oneself in ones True Being and True Nature, then everything will drop away from one even the latent seedlike tendencies and potentials from further recurrence.
Another point
Buddhahood[edit]
Buddhahood is the highest of the Ten Worlds, a condition of pure, indestructible happiness which is not dependent on one's circumstances. The experiencer is totally free from all delusion, suffering and anger. It is a condition of perfect and absolute freedom, characterized by boundless wisdom, courage, compassion and life force. This realm is difficult to describe and is generally only obtained through the direct internal perception of the realm of realization. This realm is characterized by not being shifted into lower realms due to external sources, and the non-reliance on external sources for happiness. This realm is manifested outwardly through the actions of the realm of bodhisattvahood.
In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha declares that all living beings can become a Buddha. The Buddha also inculcates the aspiration of attaining Buddhahood in his disciples. The aspiration toward Buddhahood is the key to eventually arrive at the shore of Supreme Perfect Enlightenment, i.e. Buddhahood.
In Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Buddha explains the state of Buddhahood that is characterized by four qualities - True Self, Eternity, Purity, Happiness. All sentient beings have the Buddha-Nature within them, and hence all living beings are capable of attaining Buddhahood.
Stav x
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what you still dont undersatnd and i try to meke a point to you that i do believe and accept what your teachings is stating and that is not a provisional teaching it is a teaching of the now of your Buddhism that the World of Buddhahood is "
Buddhahood: Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, WE CAN RESOLVE HARMONIOUSLY WHAT APPEAR FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE NINE WORLDS TO BE INSOLUBBLE CONTRADICTIONS. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a TRUE SELF, PERFECT FREEDOM from KARMIK BONDS THROUGHOUT ETERNITY!!.. , a LIFE PURIFIED OF ILLUSION, and ABSOLUTE HAPPINESS!!.
This is what i accept whole heartedly;
I dont accept the teachings which you claim and have no scriptural support that all the Buddhas will eventiuly fall into delusion and lower forms of life which you have stated in the previous mail; and on the contrary you send me something which claims that Buddha entered extinction; Your scripture doesn't say that the individual who have attain full Buddhahood will become again deluded and enter the lower forms of life on the contrary it seems to state that it will be extinct; this is what you send me " The Buddha said to Bodhisattva Universal Worthy: “If good men and good women fulfil four conditions in the time after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION, then they will be able to acquire this Lotus Sutra. First, they must be protected and kept in mind by the Buddhas. Second, they must plant the roots of virtue. Third, they must enter the stage where they are sure of reaching enlightenment. Fourth, they must conceive a determination to save all living beings. If good men and good women fulfil these four conditions, then after the thus come one has entered EXTINCTION they will be certain to acquire this sutra.”
This i dont belive that above i believe as i told you many times in full realization of Buddhahood and enlightenment in this very body on earth, one no need to go into high heavens (* unles one wants ) to attain full enlightenment and freedom from delusion and lower nature , neither one need to enter extinction beyond the manifestation into some formless Substance or Essence to be fully free; on the contrary to you i believe in a total perfection unlike you who believes that there cant be full freedom and eternal in ones individual attainment and that is why my last mail i send bellow to express that. I have more faith and positive outlook at the prospect of full enlightenmet as a permanent individual attainment inspite of the universal aspect of ignorance still in existence, although in enlightennt state the illusion which appear to half awake will be percieved differently as potentially inherent with perfect involed essence to be realized in time.
My Spirituality is positive and dynamic witha faith of total individual freedom from illusion just like the world of Buddhahod states and you disbelieve giving it diferenet interpretation while denying the open clear statement it makes."
Meaningless prattle.
Is it meaningless talk to want to state the truth? A lot of good clarification came through all this, with your and Katie's input as well; it seems here are still some things to be clarified and that's what is taking place. So why being negative about it.
DeleteA discussion absent Myoho renge kyo [truth itself] is a statement of truth in name only, meaningless talk.
DeleteIf Myoho renge kyo does not contain and is not contained in what is being discussed here then it must be apart and not belong to this life and universe!
DeleteMark I am surprised that you can write off all that's said as meaningless prattle. I actually thought you were part of the conversation until I checked the previous posts and realised that it was all addressed to me
DeleteEverything can be infused with Divine consciousness and thus transformed because ultimately everything is a manifestation of consciousness and force; But what The Buddha manifests is vey very different from ignorant or half awakened men;
ReplyDeleteEverything comes from that High Illumined Consciousness and when one is permanently situated in that Consciousness there are no slips, neither potentialities for evil nor choices or wishes for one to forsake ones Highest state of reinstatement and attainment.
This go's against All the great known scriptures!
Even when Christ took pieces of strips of lather and make them into a whip and chased away all those who made the Holy Temple a market place he show "anger"; we are told to become free of anger, but what is anger after all, it is a force a powerful concentrated force placed or focused towards some person or object.
When this force and the consciousness behind that force is separated with separated small selfish interests and acts on their account then it is highly undesirable action; when this force is directed for some great cause and in the case of Christ he was generally to general people very patient kind and loving but when it came to principles or the corruption of the priest and authorities of learned men who twist or were hypocritical in their faith as leaders and authority and also as he said to them " not only you won't get in " the Kingdom of God " but you also prevent others or create obstacles who want to "get In" then he was a dynamic activist.
Also he would be strict and firm at times with those near him his disciples in their training.
But all this was out of love at the background of all these and any other ways he exhibit spontaneously (as tools or instrument) to effectuate his mission to reveal and restore the Truth.
So it seems in the Highest Enlighten attainment there too is place and time for this use of force or any other means but those are very different the way they are used and the purpose which is always with a greater vision and significance which is rooted in the welfare and upliftment of all to greater happiness and harmony, and thus there is no motivation or intention in them and their action of any form of evil; in very contrast of the ignorant men's display of anger and other qualities due to ignorance.
Sx
Hi Stav,
ReplyDeleteAfter pondering this paragraph you wrote:
"I think we have to universalized our religion or spiritual path and practice that will unite us in this world all under one universal religion which non the less has its different aspects of emphasis and teachings in that one universality."
and reorienting myself to the purpose of our dialogue, the questions I wanted to answer as a practitioner of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism, I had this response, or summary/conclusion:
What is the highest teaching? What is the purpose for practicing and propagating it?
Again, I defer to Nichiren:
"Now what is known as a teaching of importance is nothing special. One who can, in accordance with the time, discern without the slightest error what is important both for oneself and for the country is a person of wisdom.The Buddha is called worthy of respect because he ponders the past and knows the future. Nothing surpasses the wisdom of knowing the three existences. Although they were not Buddhas, because sages and worthies such as Nagarjuna, Vasubandhu, T'ien-t'ai, and Dengyo. though not nearly to the same degree as the Buddha, generally understood the affairs of the three existences, their names have been passed on into the future.
Ultimately, all phenomena are contained within one's life, down to the last particle of dust. the nine mountains and the eight seas are encompassed in one's body, and the sun, moon, and myriad stars are found in one's life. We. however, are like a blind person who is incapable of seeing images reflected in a mirror, or like an infant who has no fear of war or fire. The teachings such as those of the non-Buddhist writings and those of the Hinayana and provisional Mahayana Buddhist scriptures all partially explain the phenomenons inherent in one's life. THEY DO NOT EXPLAIN THEM AS THE LOTUS SUTRA DOES." (The Mongol Envoys. WND vol 1. p.628-9)
I do not contemplate the nine consciousnesses, nor would I employ my wisdom derived from faith to seek to directly perceive the nine consciousnesses because Nichiren has specifically addressed this as worthless endeavor in The Latter Day. Contemplating the *teachings* for our Time, is chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo with a mind of faith.
"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?" ( "The Doctrine of 3,000 Realms in a single Moment of Life")
~Katie
cont'd
Excellent observation Katie.
DeleteWhat is the highest teaching? One that is universally available to
ReplyDeleteall, regardless of one's capacity.
Nichiren states. "... those who share in and believe in the Lotus Sutra are entities of that mystic sutra." ("The entity of The Mystic Law")
""When we chant this Myoho-renge-kyo, the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest. Our bodies and minds are comparable to the storehouse of the teachings, and the word myo is comparable to the seal [that permits the opening of the storehouse]. "
"The most important thing in practicing the Buddhist teachings is to follow and uphold the Buddha's golden words, not the opinions of others." and--
"Now, in the Latter Day of the Law, who is carrying out the practice of shakubuku in strict accordance with the Lotus Sutra? Suppose someone, no matter who, should unrelentingly proclaim that THE LOTUS SUTRA ALONE VAN LEAD PEOPLE TO BUDDHAHOOD AND THAT ALL OTHER SUTRAS , FAR FROM ENABLING THEM TO ATTAIN THE WAY, ONLY DRIVE THEM INTO HELL. Observe what happens should that person try to refute the teachers and the doctrines of all other schools. the three powerful enemies will arise without fail." ( "On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings.")
I think that right here in this thread, there is actual proof of this teaching of Nichiren's---
Unless we are focused on the teaching, "This wonderful Law, which is foremost and unexcelled..." we are not discussing the profound truth of the Lotus Sutra-- and missing the greatest implication, that "This law [myoho-renge-kyo] should in fact be the basis of prayers"-- ("Those Initially Aspiring To The Way")
No other information is useful-- for those aspiring to perfect enlightenment for the sake of ALL living beings.
~In my humble opinion~
~Katie
Again, excellent.
ReplyDeleteHello Katie, thank you for your reply
ReplyDeleteYou say "Even an ignorant person can receive blessings by serving someone who expounds the Lotus Sutra-- But how great is the difference between the blessings received when a sage chants the daimoku and the blessings received when we chant it? To reply, ONE IS IN NO WAY SUPERIOR TO THE OTHER. the gold that a fool possesses is in no way different than the gold that a wise man possesses, a fire made by a fool is the same as a fire made by a wise man" ("The fourteen Slanders")
Since everyone has within him/her the True nature anyone can awaken that with the right ways and means.
there is a differenrce even in chanting between the fully realized, between mature practitioner and noephyte; that is undeniable, every practitioner knows that there are levels and degrees of practtitioners of their advencment and purity and realization; though anyone can take part in it even the most ignorant witout much capacity but there is a time factor to reach the full enlightenment; everyone may chant but the depth and the realization of one who chants veries greatly!
Hello stav-
DeleteHi stav,
The statements in quotation marks are directly from the writings of Nichiren, who strictly adhered to the True Buddha's golden words. Throughout Nichiren's writings, there are passages he has quoted from the Lotus Sutra, describing in more detail this most difficult to believe and understand teaching, that ALL who take faith in the Lotus Sutra will attain the same benefits as the Buddha, Shakyamuni. Nichiren teaches chanting the daimoku, Namu-myoho-renge-kyo, also emphasizing that this practice is accessible to everyone, regardless of capacity. When you say:
"Since everyone has within him/her the True nature anyone can awaken that with the right ways and means.
there is a differenrce even in chanting between the fully realized, between mature practitioner and neophyte."
You must not forget the key point, that is; *the means* for awakening the inherent Buddhahood is Nichiren's teaching from the Lotus Sutra, chanting the daimoku. It is the same for everyone!
Nichiren states :
"The blessings gained by arousing a single moment of faith in and understanding of the Lotus Sutra surpass those of practicing the five paramitas, and the benefit enjoyed by the fiftieth person who rejoices on hearing the Lotus Sutra is greater than that acquired by giving alms for eighty years. The doctrine of the immediate attainment of enlightenment far outshines the doctrines of of other scriptures; and the pronouncements concerning the revelation of the Buddha's original enlightenment and his immeasurable life span are never found in any other teachings...This is the king of sutras defying description in words, the wonderful Law that is beyond the minds power to comprehend. "
and,
" When you look at those of superior capacity, do not disparage yourself. The Buddha's true intention was that no one, even those of inferior capacity, be denied enlightenment. conversely, when you compare yourself with persons of inferior capacity, do not be arrogant and overproud. Even persons of superior capacity may be excluded from enlightenment if they do not devote themselves wholeheartedly."("Embracing The Lotus Sutra" WND vol 1, pg. 60)
So, stav, each argument you raise, from your own understanding, points back to "faith as the cornerstone" for attaining the unsurpassed benefits contained only in the Lotus Sutra. The "wonderful Law that is beyond the minds power to comprehend", is Namu-myoho-renge-kyo.
Your references to "levels and degrees of practitioners of their advancement and purity and realization", are not appropriate applications for practitioners of the Lotus Sutra, so far as beginners and those with *superior capacity*are concerned. The reason is that it is diligence in practice and deepening one's faith in the Law and not the stage of practice or the length of time practicing, that determines a practitioners *advancement*-- Meaning a beginner could surpass one who has practiced for 20 or more years- IF the seasoned practitioner becomes negligent and the beginner is diligent! Namu- means to devote one's life-- THIS is key to attaining Buddhahood.
Nichiren teaches :" As for the time of its propagation, the Lotus sutra spreads during the latter age, when the Buddha's Law is about to perish. As for the what capacity of persons it is suited to, it can save even those who commit the five cardinal sins, or who slander the correct teaching. therefore, you must be guided by the intent of [the Lotus Sutra. which is]m the immediate attainment of enlightenment, and never give yourself up to the mistaken views that stem from doubts or attachments." ("Embracing The Lotus Sutra")
continue--
So, when you contend that,
Delete" everyone may chant but the depth and the realization of one who chants veries greatly!"
I would argue that this is due solely to the individual, unique differences in each of us, based on our own individual karma-- HOWEVER, these *realizations* you are referring to are not a prerequisite for, nor are they the actual unsurpassed benefits of practicing faith; "single-mindedly chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo".
In other words, the benefit is our immediate, instantaneous enlightenment , though we "may taste only a tiny fraction of the everlasting joys that await" us--We are moment to moment purifying all of our senses when we chant. It makes no difference that we cannot perceive or even conceive of this True Entity, myoho-renge-kyo- it permeates all three thousand realms of life in the moment we chant it-.
After 28 years chanting, I become overjoyed, to the point of tears, sharing the teachings that describe the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni's intent and the truth of them both that is available to everyone who embraces the Mystic Law, chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo-- is the greatest of all joys!!
I will answer your other comments later, stav-- am currently babysitting my grand children and three English Springer Spaniels-
best not to spend too much time at the computer :-0
~Katie
Hi Katie, yes i can understand that not wanting to spend to much time on the computer; and i especially when to comes to arguing ^-^ , enjoy your time with the two legged and four legged Sx
DeleteI will just make so clarification here; you may answer in your own time; i feel we are not exactly in tune you seem to speak of the entrance and accessibility and approach of all in regard to the chanting of the Lotus Sutra, in that i am in no disagreement at all with you. But i am speaking of the advancement specifically and of the attainment'
Deletei have been few decades involved in practice too and know from experience that everything that is written or said in the scriptures can be tested, and where can be tested in the very life only. And everything for validation no matter who says it even Buddha himself said
" Do not accept any of my words on faith,
Believing them just because I said them.
Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts, burns,
And critically examines his product for authenticity.
Only accept what passes the test
By proving useful and beneficial in your life.
The Buddha (Jnanasara-samuccaya)
And the chanting and the Teachings of Buddha are indeed beneficial; but what you say:
" I would argue that this is due solely to the individual, unique differences in each of us, based on our own individual karma-- HOWEVER, these *realizations* you are referring to are not a prerequisite for, nor are they the actual unsurpassed benefits of practicing faith; "single-mindedly chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo".
Anyone can practice the faith but the past or past live's accumulation of spiritual merit make very difference from individual to individual, how much one deeply understands and is more aware and sensitive and more conscious to clearly grasp the teachings; also one has a great life perception in general.
In other words, the benefit is our immediate, instantaneous enlightenment , though we "may taste only a tiny fraction of the everlasting joys that await" us--We are moment to moment purifying all of our senses when we chant. It makes no difference that we cannot perceive or even conceive of this True Entity, myoho-renge-kyo- it permeates all three thousand realms of life in the moment we chant it-.
One advances even without perceiving or having some flashy experiences definitely it is growth and awakening of Consciousness thats most important but through practice sincere practice the full realization of Buddhahood has to come; not just some enlightenment but the full realization; just a faith without realization is just a beginning; Just like as has been said too in the Bible "faith without works is dead" on has to live it and who lives it the most then the one who is Fully awakened.
And you know there are many chanters and many chanters i have met who even shed tears but then in life and their dealings their consciousness is low; there is sometimes too much sentimentalism and emotion but no deep realization of the teachings, neither change and purity into the truth of the teachings. You have seen people through their chanting and prayers and their faith without realization and clear understanding of what their own scriptures, without clear and pure life perception how many fanatics and narrow people are there. All because of lack of true Realization and Enlightenment.
DeleteThe reason is that it is diligence in practice and deepening one's faith in the Law and not the stage of practice or the length of time practicing, that determines a practitioners *advancement*-- Meaning a beginner could surpass one who has practiced for 20 or more years- IF the seasoned practitioner becomes negligent and the beginner is diligent! Namu- means to devote one's life-- THIS is key to attaining Buddhahood.
DeleteBut deep faith Katie comes from realization of the teachings and from steady and sincere practice.
Hi Stav, if I knew the destination ahead of time, or had a firm grasp of the ultimate goal of my practice of Nichiren's Buddhism, I would not need to have faith, just a plan---and by the same token, if I had not deepened my faith in the Lotus Sutra by practicing as Nichiren taught for [the past 28 years], I would not have studied and come to believe in Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha, and the Lotus Sutra as the unsurpassed teaching. WE are in tune, I think, on the significance and the experience of * a practice * that accords with specific teachings...
DeleteI agree that a spiritual practice is putting scriptural teachings to the test, and that this testing occurs within our very lives. Now, consider what practicing a teaching that IS the essence of our lives would test-- not the truth of the scriptures, but the truth of our lives is revealed. It is inexpressible in words...
Also consider:
Chanting the Mystic Law IS the teaching, IS our True essence, but it is also the True essence of all things, of all phenomena -- It would be virtually impossible NOT to appreciate the profound effect of reciting the daimoku; of resonating with all life , all phenomena throughout the universe. As life is constantly in flux, always changing moment to moment it is impossible to know or predict what will impact our consciousness, or where the experience may lead in terms of awakening and realization. I do know that the desire to study Nichiren's writings and the Lotus Sutra can be a natural effect of chanting daimoku, as I experienced a thirst for study as validation for my experience as opposed to seeking to experience what was written in the teachings. Though I later learned that I can grasp, conceptualize and actualize Nichiren's more difficult teachings by chanting daimoku. No question that I approach the study of everything relevant to my life-- family, work, creative projects- after chanting daimoku with faith and gratitude for the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni and Nichiren-- there is no surer means for success beyond my imagining.
Aside from embracing the Law and chanting it, there is no requirement that we amend or revise ourselves, our thoughts, etc. according to commandments, or prohibitions. Therefore, to me, at least, it did not really matter IF the teacher, Nichiren or the Buddha Shakyamuni could be proven valid or not. I was losing nothing, changing nothing and expecting nothing when I began to chant. Nichiren and Shakyamuni have gained my absolute trust based on my own experience chanting and studying their teachings.
Ultimately, guess I am saying the Mystic Law is my teacher-? I think perhaps this unique to the individual adventure, is the best explanation for why * an organized religion approach* to the practice of Nichiren's Buddhism is unnecessary at best, and detrimental at worst.
It is due solely to Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin that I have the means to awaken to my own true nature, the ultimate realty , the true entity that permeates all life and all phenomena. THIS experience is enlightenment-- how one uses it, develops it, etc. is unique to the individual practitioner-- which is why we cannot judge the teaching or the practice by observing practitioners alone-- . It is only through our own faith and practice that we can realize the truth of the Lotus Sutra,
in my humble opinion.
~Katie
stav hatzJune 21, 2016 at 12:05 AM
Delete" Nichiren and Shakyamuni have gained my absolute trust based on my own experience chanting and studying their teachings."
Thats what i am happy to hear Katie..experience.
Well but there is some discipline some process one has to follow till it becomes more constant and spontaneous; i will not push or insist on anything here , just to summarize what i intended to say and which i find important is for one to become what one have faith in and surrender gradually fully through ones awakening through the practice of that Truth one experiences and become embodiment of It in total transformation.
Sx
Hi Katie you said "if I knew the destination ahead of time, or had a firm grasp of the ultimate goal of my practice of Nichiren's Buddhism, I would not need to have faith.."
DeleteThe ultimate goal is Self-Realization and in that possessing one is simultaneously situated in ones triple aspect of individual, universal and transcendent being knowing the secret will and intention of all that's taking place. In the Sanskrit it is called a Divine Lila, the whole existence is a Divine play of Consciousness and in the attainment of Full Self-Realization one knows the full intention of the manifestation and then takes part in it Fully Conscious.
Sx
Hi Stav ! It may be due to the compelling demands on my attention and sensibilities ( grand children, beloved pets, my garden, my evolving career as a nurse/human rights activist, my creative hobbies and love of dance-- to name a few); all that comprises the environment where I am constantly engaged with other living beings, is the focus of my quest for enlightenment --
DeleteBy this I mean to convey that eloquently expressed, abstract and esoteric renderings of a *Divine play of consciousness* pale in comparison to the realizations I experience fully harmonizing with the True entity of all phenomena--via chanting daimoku, embracing the Lotus Sutra-- and expressing reverence for Shakyamuni and Nichiren by studying their teachings assiduously.
The practice of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism is not easy, and though I have acquired self discipline from an early age, by such things as ballet training and responsibility for the care of living creatures, I believe that the discipline required to develop a *mind of faith* is the most difficult-- or at least as difficult as reigning in a wild elephant!
My destination is really , always, *this moment*-- It does not have relevance beyond *now*-- though after 28 years of devotion to Nichiren's teachings and my consistent practice of chanting daimoku and reciting the Lotus Sutra, I find that I am far less fettered to the sufferings of birth and death than anyone I know-- and more passionate about using every moment-- to the fullest for the sake of an ever expanding group of *others*.
The supremacy of the Lotus Sutra has been noted by the most highly esteemed teachers preceding Nichiren- . We have discussed only a tiny fraction of the doctrinal and theoretical proof of the supremacy of the Lotus Sutra. I have shared a very brief overview of the profound actual proof I have experienced.
Ultimately the consistent practice of chanting, which is actually easy when compared to other practices, is fundamental to the severe difficulties that arise to challenge my *mind of faith*--
Perhaps there is nothing more difficult for the most serious minded and learned seekers of the way of our time, than to have pure faith in the teachings of one teacher. The Buddha understood this , no doubt-- leaving us the *good medicine*, myoho renge kyo , Shakyamuni alone can save and protect all living beings in this time when we have all acquired the karma to have lost our "true minds"!
All the Best,
~Katie
Hi Katie, when we learn to embrace other religions in our lives and see the Divine variety of approaches and relationships then we will experience more of universality without feeling pale or abstract towards others experiences and expressions, I do recognize your way as one way of approach towards Truth but I see others as well, I can harmonize them in a greater synthesis.
DeleteAll the Best Sx
Hi stav,
DeleteThere is no other teaching that equals the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren grasped this, I believe, and therefore was able to recognize Shakyamuni Buddha as the True and Eternal Buddha-- or perhaps he recognized Shakyamuni as the True Buddha and therefore believed his golden words , declaring the Lotus Sutra to be the highest teaching. I harmonize with the deep desire to save ALL living beings and appreciate every struggle and challenge in this regard , accepting as my guide, the many lives of Shakyamuni and Nichiren's lifelong devotion to propagating the True Buddha's teaching.
Having no desire for other *religious* experiences, I can embrace both the joys and sufferings of others, never *feeling* pale or abstract towards their experiences or expressions. Faith in the Lotus Sutra illuminates these expressions, many of which appear to be the result of deep longing for escape from the suffering in our saha world!
Faith in and practice of Nichiren's Lotus Sutra Buddhism is the ONLY way to attain perfect enlightenment . I see other ways for what they are; expressions of our human potential for self perfection. I felt this to be the basis for yours and Noel's discussion, dialogue, monologues and debates published here.
So, I agree that it is possible to experience our *universality*-- This accords with one of the precious jewels in the Lotus Sutra; "The Mutual Possession of The Ten Worlds". Why would you [or Noel] seek any teacher other than Shakyamuni,? He alone, shared the wonderful Law; the means for ALL living beings to attain Buddhahood? That is the highest degree of universality one can encounter!!
Is there any other teaching that fully explains life and all of its functions? Is there any other Buddha who claimed he alone could rescue and protect ALL living beings in the Latter Day of the Law?
Because I decided to participate in the discussion on this post, I finally got to the heart of my past and present disagreements with Noel. And this realization has caused me to deepen my faith in Nichiren's teachings even more--
continued....
Nichiren teaches that, Even though "they chant the daimoku, they destroy the heart of the Lotus Sutra"-- by acting in ways that do not accord with the intent of the Lotus Sutra, the golden words of the True Buddha.
DeleteYou noted discrepancies between Noels statements about *the scriptures* and the content of the scriptures. Specifically,and based entirely on his own disclosure, Noel revealed that he has the capacity to perceive the "true entity of the mystic Law.. and the true aspect of all phenomena"-- I have posted references for him from Nichiren's writings regarding his error in this regard. I hope that he corrects his error, which is a potential that arose from your courageous engagement with him in this public forum.
AS MARK shared from Nichiren's teachings: "When a person’s offense is minor, admonishment is sometimes called for, but at other times it may be unnecessary, for there are those who may correct themselves without being told. Reprove a person for slander when necessary, so that you can forestall for both of you the consequences of an offense. Then, you should forgive that person. The point is that even minor slanders may lead to serious ones, and then the effects one must suffer would be far worse. This is [what Chang-an means when he writes], “One who rids the offender of evil is acting as his parent.”
I am the first to admit that my wisdom with regard to the whole of Buddhist thought and history is lacking. All of my contributions to this discussion are solely due to my faith in and practice of Nichiren's Buddhism. Not only is there no greater joy than chanting myho-renge-kyo, but there is no greater understanding of all worldly affairs of life and work, expressed through the practice of any other teaching.
And since THIS is the world we must transform, isn't *envisioning* the Divine just an escapist practice ? Experiencing the divine, wonderful Mystic Law in our lives and all life is both the means for this transformation and the benefit of practicing faith in the divine, wonderful Law!
Yes, chanting seems over simplistic -- even when one is told that Myoho-renge-kyo encompasses the entire Lotus Sutra and indeed ALL of life and its myriad functions, some still dismiss it a *childish theory*-- and claim to have superior capacities , and to have attained superior insight. Right there, or here, is the real challenge -- overcoming the arrogance of mind that is rampant in the 5th 500 years after the Buddha's passing-- exactly as Shakyamuni predicted.
Why not practice a teaching that is proven true; one that contains no falsehoods , or erroneous statements? It seems foolish to me to continue any other practice once one has heard the teachings in the Lotus.
A wise person, at least in my humble opinion, who is skeptical of the bold pronouncements in the Lotus Sutra, would begin to chant the daimoku, with the intent of refuting the Buddha's highest teaching-- BEFORE accepting any lesser teaching.
in my humble opinion,
~Katie
Hi Katie maybe for Noel what you say it can be applied since he represent your Buddhism; but for me I have my practice and I happy with my practice and the benefits from it; I joined or rather I was pulled in this blog because Noel put some of my emails which I send to him there and that's how it began and I stuck here ( and I have benefited )for the truth that Buddha doesn't decline; that was the main thing; of course through our discussions and from Marks few mails I realized that you dont accept any other path and teachings outside the lotus sutra and everyone who dont accept them go more or less to hell;
DeleteI dont need to change my practice to realize for example that as your scriptures and the one I mainly follow (and I say mainly not that I dont follow them fully but where I see in other religions the same universal truth I follow that as well) accept the same thing; and so I accept enlightenment in this present life, anyone can whether man or woman , academically educated or uneducated all can attaint that which they already possess, you say only through lotus sutra and only through Sakyamuni, It is more correct to say only through the true teachings whether they come from Sakyamuni or another, truth is truth no matter who spoke it and shown it with ones life; as I said before there are true teachings in other scriptures and you said in your humble admission that you dont know outside Nichiren Buddhism about other scriptures but then proudly and in an ignorance since you admit that you dont know you deny other scriptures;
You have the right to state your faith and teachings for you as true but you have no right neither it is a scientific or logical to deny something which you have no knowledge of.
You may say you have faith simply in Nichiren's decision when he state there is not Highest truth outside Lotus Sutra and Sakyamuni;
And here then I will ask you what is the Truth and please dont say the lotus sutra just as a label; you said before the 3000 realm teachings; I have replied to you that these ideas or rather the truth of these ideas is too in the Vedanta as I told you about the 14worlds and 11 Consciousness and as I also mentioned that the figures differ because of adding more of lower and higher worlds and also of adding the universal in distinction from individual alaya and also from individual and universal and transcendent amala; the amala is simultaneously in this 3 poises as individual , universal and beyond both, beyond time and space. also the mutual possession of them and the 10 factors that is also there all these factors are known; about the mutual possession that is also there and as I told you it is even more so since it admits also influences from other dimensions which are part of the whole Cosmic existence;
DeleteAnd if this sounds to esoteric then let it be; after all do you know the meaning of esoteric or exoteric , they are Greek words which is one of my spoken languages , esoteric means inner or internal and exoteric outer or external; so reality has the inner and the outer, the external and the internal realities and to speak of the whole you have to include the whole; and the whole process of spiritual life is to bring into harmony the inner and outer life.
These are basically the main teachings of Nichiren Buddhism; and Nichiren encapsulated all this concept in the phrase which the first word is in Sanskrit Nam and the rest Japanese for the whole operation of the cosmos; this in Sansktit in Vedanta is encapsulated in one word OM which signifies the primordial sound containing all the fundamental consciousness and all the functions and manifestations in it; this sacred word has been chanted and is still chanted by millions all around the planet and it has the power to purify and lift the consciousness to its summit and transform the whole nature;
You say envisioning the Divine is escapism, how can be envisioning or realizing the Divine escapism for the very realization of the Divine means realizing the whole so how can you or where to escape; if you mean to escape outside this earth to other places like the heavens described in the scriptures or the Parinirvana how it is described as complete extinction ( even this has different interpretations , some say extinction of ego ) of any individual formation, that then would not be the fulfilment of this world and its transformation would be impossible;
So the envisioning or realizing and manifesting the Divine would truly as I have faith and my teaching teach mean total transformation and that is the aim of the yoga or spiritual path I follow.
But while I follow it I know from experience and knowledge of other scriptures that that truth is also stated there and so I am glad and happy that others also aim at that and I see them as my brothers and sisters and not as adversaries;
DeleteI see this in the teachings of other religions; but if one just looks superficially or just listen to the followers alone which they to dont know and are not interested to know about other religions they out of their ignorance too are thinking we only posses the highest and the truest truth; but it is not like that; I have seen and have read some of the lives and teachings of great religious persons and seen in their depth that they perceive the same universal truth.
If you want to know something correctly you have to go deep into it yourself; if you say I dont need to ok but that only makes you understand your own teachings ( in your way ) without knowing about others; and the funny thing is that you speak of no escape but of transformation here on earth but how can you achieve that if you dont know the religious teachings of your fellow men ( and I assume that you are from Australia which is of many religions and cultures ) and your country men? You say also you will embrace the sufferings and joys of others but not their spiritual experiences; is not Christ's love or of some sincere Christians religious love and their relationship with the Divine of no concern of yours, or any other sincere practitioner who manifest divine love and wisdom in ones life no interest to know her/his spiritual joys and inspirational friendship? are not those who are in harmony with the Divine's Law true practitioners and our true well wishers? do they have to be under certain religious name but obviously you believe that since Nichiren only say the historical Sakyamuni Buddha is the only one who can protect and save all; Muslim preachers would tell you the same that only their Holy Koran can save you, or Christian preachers only through Jesus Christ the person can one be saved.
For the deeper practitioners these have different meaning , in the sense that the superficial take the outward meaning only without knowing the teachings the other knows the teachings and says it; but the one who truly knows the teachings will recognize the truth if it is universal in other scriptures as well and will acknowledge that that same universal truth Is the Only way which will protect you and save you.
And I am asking you Katie what is That Universal Truth of you religion which is above the others and what is the false or incorrect teachings of the other religions?
Sx
Hi to all here on the Eagle Peak, somehow I became involved here with Noel and in a way I am glad and that is because things have became more clear to me and Noel had and has the opportunity to correct his wrong views about his own Buddhism with your correction.
DeleteNow it has become tiring, one can take the horse to the water or bring water to him but you cant make him drink; Thank you for all the exchange and if someone is from Sydney we could have a coffee one day. kriyaban111@hotmail.com
Warm Greetings Stav x
Hi stav,
DeleteRemaining true to the spirit of this discussion, where I feel that sharing teachings and perspectives have been mutually appreciated, I want to clarify what I see as the essential difference between our understandings.
"You have the right to state your faith and teachings for you as true but you have no right neither it is a scientific or logical to deny something which you have no knowledge of."
It is crucial to acknowledge that the statements regarding the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren are *theirs*, in other words, Shakyamuni declared that the Lotus Sutra was his highest teaching and that he alone, could *rescue and protect all living beings*. Nichiren's study of all of the sutras, treatises and commentaries led him to conclude that the Lotus Sutra surpassed all other teachings and that every word (character) was the Buddha's *mind* , which he, Nichiren sought exclusively, placing faith in Lotus Sutra, revering Shakyamuni and sharing the daimoku of the Lotus Sutra as the essential practice for our *time*. So, it is not ME who has who claimed, or is saying, that faith in the Lotus Sutra is the only way to attain Buddhahood, and that all other teachings lead to the hell of incessant suffering. It is ME saying I believe the words, the mind of the True Buddha, expressed as the Lotus Sutra. Why would I believe this Buddha and this teaching ? That is really the issue.
"You may say you have faith simply in Nichiren's decision when he state there is not Highest truth outside Lotus Sutra and Sakyamuni"
Again, Stav, Nichiren is *believing* what Shakyamuni himself declared. Nichiren decided to believe exactly what the Buddha said and taught. Based on my own experience chanting the daimoku as Nichiren taught, I , too have decided to believe *exactly* what the BUDDHA said and taught. this is the scientific method, the test-- replicating the experiment, validates the results.
"...as I said before there are true teachings in other scriptures and you said in your humble admission that you dont know outside Nichiren Buddhism about other scriptures but then proudly and in an ignorance since you admit that you dont know you deny other scriptures;"
You see, Stav, my first encounter with Buddhism was Nichiren's teachings. Only if I had formed doubts about the practice would I have sought other teachings. So, I am neither portraying ignorance or arrogance, but simply stating that I have found no cause to doubt Nichiren's teachings and the Lotus Sutra. I shared that I have had discussions , not unlike this one, with people who have different spiritual practices, beliefs, or adhere to the doctrines of major world religions. I don't view them, or you, as adversaries. I do find it is very difficult to distinguish between what one decides based on his/her own mind and choosing to believe the exact words, teachings of One Buddha. Very different matter than *interpreting* archaic writings on matters where one has to have a *blind* faith in the impossible.= Which, in my opinion is the case with all monotheistic religions. And ultimately that entails beliefs about death and the question of an after life. I don't assume an adversarial posture towards anyones "beliefs" ,I simply share what I have learned from Nichiren's teachings and, also what I have experienced with the death of loved ones.
~Katie
cont'd
cont'd
Shakyamuni made predictions in the Lotus Sutra that are also crucial to understanding why I would *believe* this one Buddha. The most compelling, for me, is the state the world is in now, and more specifically the condition of the minds of the people-- which are, of course directly related. I have found many references in Nichiren's writings regarding how our present day conditions of the mind render us prone to errors in thought and perceptions. The practice of seated meditation, for instance, is not recommended by the Buddha for the Latter Day--and Nichiren focused on "hearing and reciting the sutra, specifically the daimoku". Faith is the means for attaining wisdom, fortified by study, but not the other way around.
Delete"And I am asking you Katie what is That Universal Truth of you religion which is above the others and what is the false or incorrect teachings of the other religions? "
I would compare the mind of Shakyamuni Buddha to a crystal clear lake, and the minds of us common mortals, living in the Latter Day of the Law, are like a polluted stream. When I am thirsting for truth, I drink from the crystal clear lake--that is my religion.
Over time, 28 years to be exact, I believe I have made significant progress detoxifying my mind by consistently drinking the pure water of the Mystic Law.
I am not trying to make you drink the water I drink , I just want to be clear about my practice, especially that I am trying to be as clear as I can be regarding what it is and what it is based upon.
Once again, the declarations of the Buddha are what I believe, not my own *revelations of mind* or the opinions of others,who cannot substantiate their views with clear references from the scriptures, just as Nichiren did. So, that is the explanation for what I believe-- plain and simple.
I live in the U.S. in a small town just outside of Boston. I would love to visit Sydney Australia, some day, and I hope that when I do, we can meet for coffee. :-)
With sincere appreciation,
~Katie
Thank you Katie for taking the time to reply my mail;
DeleteIn the way you see some things i kindly disagree; but I do appreciate your sincerity and your practice you do; everyone in their religion ( accept some and they will soon or later find their path and the teachings which appeal to them ) who follow sincerely ones path have to have faith in it; but faith also grows through practice which turns ultimately into a direct perception and realization where faith becomes a reality;
take a Christian, or Muslim or Vedantist he/she truly believes that is the highest path for me just like you it is natural; but very few understand and I am not playing here some genius but me too, for me I do accept the Vedanta as the best but I do at the same time see and recognize others as well; I can see beauty, sacrifice and love and wisdom and power in Jesus Christ, also in Saints like Frances of Assisi; or if you have heard of Bede Griffith a Catholic monk who settled in India; or Shaym of Tabriz and Rumi; and others from India they are all a family I feel them as such : and in my opening prayer before practice they are always mentioned "saints ( which includes also Buddha and Bodhisattvas)and sages of all religions I bow to you all" . I see also in your Nichiren Buddhism so much truth and universality but also so much conflict ^_^. There will always be some varieties even among the same religion, just as they are in your path many sects, just like in Christianity etc; I agree that what you follow you see it as the best but don't deny the best that is seen by others. Vedanta is outside the Buddhist sutras and the vedic tradition don't call their Fully enlighten beings as Buddhas although they are, they call them by different names like Avatars or Bhagavan and other names.
Anyway you take care of your self and if you do come to Sydney let me know; keep my email.
Warmly Namaste Sx
In Boston Paramahansa Yogananda in 1920 attended the congress of world religions and spread the teachings of ancient India and established first centre there and then in other parts of US called the Self-Realization Fellowship. You would probably heard about him Katie, I practice the Kriya Yoga he taught and the chanting of OM. http://www.yogananda.com.au/gallery_py_life.html
DeleteSx
To be more precise I practice a similar technique which was anciently used for opening the inner centres of consciousness together with chanting the OM ; Paramahansa Yogananda slightly modified the technique he taught in the western world.
DeleteAlso a great soul Swami Vivekananda in 1893 he went to Chicago to take part in the world religious congress ( imagine at that time someone to speak to a Christian nation about the soul the essence of man is one with God the Essence of all and reincarnation ) and all became amazed at his speeches, they used to keep him last so that all would stay to listen all the speakers.
DeleteHe was the first in big scale to introduce the ancient Vedanta to the west.
But when he went there at first he had no formal invitation and so because Boston was cheaper he went there till he find solution how to get access as a representative of Vedanta religion. So he met at Boston an university professor John Henry Wright from Harvard University and when the professor heard his teachings he immediately said you should speak at the congress and Vivekananda said I don't have officially the credentials , when the professor heard this he said "To ask for your credentials is like asking the sun to state its right to shine in the heavens."[3] This is his speech 1983 in Chicago ( it is not his voice there was not recording available at that time but it well made as he spoke it )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQekcwOZ8FU
Sx
I do not contemplate the nine consciousnesses, nor would I employ my wisdom derived from faith to seek to directly perceive the nine consciousnesses because Nichiren has specifically addressed this as worthless endeavor in The Latter Day. Contemplating the *teachings* for our Time, is chanting Namu-myoho-renge-kyo with a mind of faith.
ReplyDeletehere you seem to say that one no need to have any realization of what the "nam moyho renge kyo" stands for which is the whole concept of 3000 realms in single moment of life with all its teachings; one just need to chant and remain ignorant of that and have only faith in the chanting without any actual realization..? how can that be since with the practice of chanting the very truth which is laid in that seed mantra formula of "nam myoho renge kyo" has to be revealed and realized how can you say "the Buddha of original enlightenment present in our lives becomes manifest" and then claim ignorance and as not important one to be realized of ones Nature with its functions 9 consciousness and the whole concept of 3000 realms? You sound here bit like Christians who say just have faith and you will be saved though someone elses grace without any personal realization. Is it not the very teachings of Buddhism compare to Theistic religions that through your own realization ( no doubt with the help of true teachings and practice ) will you become free and Enlighten.?
Also it is like te Pure land Buddhism in chich they teach that the faithfull will be taken to a heaven and there will atain the full realization; just like Christians too believe that after death they will become perfect in a moment; but that goes against the very teachings when it is said here in this very life before death one can become a Buddha..one cannot become a Buddha simply because one is chanting without the full realization of the meaning of what one chants, of the teachings one follows , of the direct experience as the Sakyamuni has of the Universe and all the Truths contained in it!
ReplyDelete"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood solely through the contemplation of the mind are following a one-sided approach. And how much truer is that of those who practice the Zen style of seated meditation and speak of a "special transmission outside the sutras?" ( "The Doctrine of 3,000 Realms in a single Moment of Life")
ReplyDelete"Those who seek to attain Buddhahood SOLELY through the contemplation of the mind" i agree absolutely with you and this statement; there are very very rare cases who are able to go deed into their True nature of Being and realize directly all the Truths!
That is why it is rightly stated that one cannot SOLELY through the contemplation of the mind attain Buddhahood; one has to have the True teachings;
You spoke before of hearing the True Teahings which you belive only the Lotus Sutra posses, but hearing is also reading, also speaking the teachings, preaching, reciting or singing or chanting is all hrearing. But then one has to think of the things or teachings heard and deeply contemplate on them, that is also meditation. It seems it is spoken of solely meditating in ones mind without true teachings!
Katie you know of these declarations like, the Quran is the only pure scripture which is not distorted and only this book contains the pure teachings; or only through Jesus one can be saved and the quote " i am the way and the Truth and no one comes to the Father except through me" .. I personally dont believe these statements in the way they simply presented and tought ( though i believe them in a deeper significance and Truth ) and i think you obviously dont either; but when it comes to your teachings you seem to state exactly that!
ReplyDeleteThat is why i love Vedanta because there is no such an exclusive claim!
And frankly speaking the Muslims, the Christians, the Hindus and the other Great Buddhist paths they will not disapear from this earth' the islam like Christianity contains low and high teachings as well, but because of the mentality of the peoples taught then the emphasis is given primerily to rules and morality; but there are high teachings as well; for example to lower conscious people Jesus advise to pray to God who is in Heaven, to others who asked him show us the Kingdom of Heaven he replied " the kingdom of heaven is not like that as to show here it is or there it is, for the Kingdom of Heaven is within you" or more higher declaration me and my Father ARE ONE and as i will be sitted in His Throne you will be sitted in us..etc ( these are High truths some spoken through parabels some more directly.
This is what i meant by Universal religion that through all this practice and through the elevation of the earth consciousness and its people in general there will come a time through all the great faiths and their teachings and help which all will benifit and share gradually because no man or religion is an island in itself, we all grow together and so a time will come where all the great religions which will remain will embrace the highest teachings from their own religions and they will be interpreted in the light of their evolving and growing consciousness; the lesser and relative teachings of old times and circumstances will be replaced and emphasised with highest and more of Eternal Truths of Teachings. We are all here to grow and help each other and i firmly believe that the different aspects and approaches of other paths will ramain but the teachings will be interprited in a higher light of consciousness as men grows and evolves more spiritualy.
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ReplyDeleteSince Katie has appeared to have run out of words for now (that I thought could never happen) I'll just pop this in, in hope that others may join in on the compassionate conversion discussion with Stavros as he has expressed that he is interested in others opinions about Nichiren Buddhism
ReplyDeleteNichiren Quotes from; "The Complete and Final Teaching on Perfect Enlightenment Sutra declares, “The beginningless illusions and ignorance that beset all living beings are all produced by the perfectly enlightened mind of the Thus Come Ones.”
The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai in his Great Concentration and Insight states, “Ignorance or illusions are in themselves enlightenment to the essential nature of phenomena. But due to the influence of delusions, enlightenment changes into ignorance.”
The Great Teacher Miao-lo comments on this as follows: “Enlightenment has no separate entity but completely depends upon ignorance; and ignorance has no separate entity but completely depends upon enlightenment.”
Ignorance is a state of delusion that must be cut off, whereas enlightenment is the state that one must manifest. How then can we say that they are a single entity? To resolve doubts on this point, one should have a clear grasp of the passages that have been quoted here." - The Entity of the Mystic Law
Stavros; "The Perfectly Enlightenment Mind is the Ground of Being from which all comes and with which the Thus Come Ones are in oneness; It is unthinkable and it goes against the Very nature of compassion and enlightenment for those in Stage of Buddhahood or even a Bodhisattva to use their Nirmanakaya and Sabhogakaya being to create illusions and ignorance in the world and for others or to misuse their Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya attainment and choose to plunge again into delusion of ignorance to cause more burden on others and on themselves ; the very things through their very birth they came to dispel which is the ignorance and illusion in the world.
So this statement can only be directed to the Original Ground Being, the Brahman , the Godhead of the Theistic paths which states also in the Bible this but many Christians overlook this " King James Bible
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. " Isaiah 45.7 . , Or from the Siva Siddhanta Tradition it is stated that Siva creates, maintains, destroys . reveals and conceals His 5 functions.
And of course in the Vedanta teachings too the Divine manifest these two aspects. Ultimately it is The Ultimate Perfectly Enlighten Eternal Ground Reality which manifests and generates all the manifestations including the ignorance and the illusive appearance through a succession of unfoldment."
Mark, Shinkei, Mrs Higgins, Greg, Mudpie boy and Who ever (independent practicioners, Nichiren Buddhists sects - What's your opinions on these statements from Vedanta and Nichiren Buddhism in which some appear to be diametrically opposed
Thanks
"The Ultimate Perfectly Enlighten Eternal Ground Reality which manifests and generates all the manifestations including the ignorance and the illusive appearance through a succession of unfoldment."
Delete“The beginningless illusions and ignorance that beset all living beings are all produced by the perfectly enlightened mind of the Thus Come Ones.”
Can anyone see some similarity or differences ???
Since you involved me here then I may say yes there are differences which have to clearly distinguished as I previously replied to you:
Delete"So fundamentally speaking That True Entity and True Nature of Being will manifest all the different planes and levels of Consciousness through gradual or successive unfoldment again and again in different ways but that is not you , me or I; thats why the seers or Buddhas they dont say true I or real Me because the moment you say that there is a smell and shadow of ego that is why they say That or the Suchness because from the experience it is felt like that as That and in that experience as (an example of his personal experience which you can verify from his testimony) Sri Aurobindo also stated as well no pure i neither any idea of true self was felt, there were no thoughts at all in that Ground of being state only the awareness of That and he ( said although he didnt think it at that time since it was completely beyond any concept of mental mind) was simply That and That was the only awareness aware of That ( and of course of all the formations but with different significance as seen from ordinary mind ).
So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate "You" so to speak than yes it is 'You' or more precisely That who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation.
Stav
Hi to all here on the Eagle Peak, somehow I became involved here with Noel and in a way I am glad and that is because things have became more clear to me and Noel had and has the opportunity to correct his wrong views about his own Buddhism with your correction.
DeleteNow it has become tiring, one can take the horse to the water or bring water to him but you cant make him drink; Thank you for all the exchange and if someone is from Sydney we could have a coffee one day. kriyaban111@hotmail.com
Warm Greetings Stav x
Thanks Stavros, I've underestimated you and the Vendanta masters and their traditions. After all they are all part of the way and have their relevance for their time. I've needed something like this to bring me back into place, only by you coming onto the blog could I start to see what has happened to me through my interaction with other Nichiren Buddhists with peculiar persuasions of interpretation of which I am no doubted considered to be one
DeleteThese people here on Eagle Peak haven't been able to correct my views on this one just like you haven't because my views are not wrong in the first place as much as that would please your belief system that endeavours to make extinct Stavro's ever changing individual continuation which is at odds with the ever changing individual aspect of alaya consciousness throughout the 3 existences of the eternal past present and future existence that are used to indicate all of time, from the eternal past, through the present, through the eternal future. These three aspects of the eternity of life are linked inseparably by the law of cause and effect.
Nichiren never said that there will be an end to rebirth but rather better conditions in future lives
The present day SGI that I have been waring with over the past are in agreement with Vedanta and have a unity ticket on this one.
Which is the extinction of the eternal ever changing individual continuation of the individual aspect of the Alaya consciousness throughout the 3 existences in favour of the non dual Absolute (Amala Consciousness) in isolation and devoid of other consciousness's Thanks for making this clear
The qualities of Buddha nature are infinite compassion, inexhaustible life force (non tiring), boundless wisdom and courage
Our Ground of Being can be likened to That which is beginingless and with which the Thus Come Ones are in oneness and are indistinguishable.
Dharma Body, Reward Body, Manifest body between common mortals and Buddhas are the same in structure except that a Buddhas reward and manifest body are enlightened. There is nothing fixed or alien about this
The common mortals Reward and Manifest bodies have glimpses of enlightenment compared to a fully cultivated Buddha whose dominant state of the ten worlds is Buddha. eg Shakyamuni
The Dharma body is the absolute in the sense that it is unchanging like the Amala consciousness and is inseparable and exists simultaneously with other consciousness's unlike Vedanta and the SGI
I think Mark's comment is worth repeating.
Delete"A discussion absent Myoho renge kyo [truth itself] is a statement of truth in name only, meaningless talk."
Cheers All!
~Katie
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DeleteOn Attaining Buddhahood
Delete- Issho Jobutsu Sho -
If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured through eternity and attain supreme enlightenment in this lifetime, you must awaken to the mystic truth which has always been within your life. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth within you. Myoho-renge-kyo is the king of sutras, flawless in both letter and principle. Its words are the reality of life, and the reality of life is the Mystic Law (Myoho). It is called the Mystic Law because it explains the mutually inclusive relationship of life and all phenomena. That is why this sutra is the wisdom of all Buddhas.
Life at each moment encompasses both body and spirit and both self and environment of all sentient beings in every condition of life1, as well as insentient beings -- plants, sky and earth, on down to the most minute particles of dust. Life at each moment permeates the universe and is revealed in all phenomena. One awakened to this truth himself embodies this relationship. However, even though you chant and believe in Myoho-renge-kyo, if you think the Law is outside yourself, you are embracing not the Mystic Law but some inferior teaching. "Inferior teachings" means those other than this sutra, which are all provisional and transient. No provisional teaching leads directly to enlightenment, and without the direct path to enlightenment you cannot attain Buddhahood, even if you practice lifetime after lifetime for countless aeons. Attaining Buddhahood in this lifetime is then impossible. Therefore, when you chant the Mystic Law and recite the Lotus Sutra, you must summon up deep conviction that Myoho-renge-kyo is your life itself.
You must never seek any of Shakyamuni's teachings or the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the universe outside yourself. Your mastery of the Buddhist teachings will not relieve you of mortal sufferings in the least unless you perceive the nature of your own life. If you seek enlightenment outside yourself, any discipline or good deed will be meaningless. For example, a poor man cannot earn a penny just by counting his neighbor's wealth, even if he does so night and day. That is why Miao-lo states, "Unless one perceives the nature of his life, he cannot eradicate his evil karma." He means here that unless one perceives the nature of his life, his practice will become an endless, painful austerity. Miao-lo therefore condemns such students of Buddhism as non-Buddhist. He refers to the passage in the Maka Shikan, "Although they study Buddhism, their views revert to those of non-Buddhists."
Whether you chant the Buddha's name3, recite the sutra or merely offer flowers and incense, all your virtuous acts will implant benefits in your life. With this conviction you should put your faith into practice. For example, the Jomyo Sutra says the Buddha's enlightenment is to be found in human life, thus showing that common mortals can attain Buddhahood and that the sufferings of birth and death can be transformed into nirvana. It further states that if the minds of the people are impure, their land is also impure, but if their minds are pure, so is their land. There are not two lands, pure or impure in themselves. The difference lies solely in the good or evil of our minds.
cont...
It is the same with a Buddha and a common mortal. While deluded, one is called a common mortal, but once enlightened, he is called a Buddha. Even a tarnished mirror will shine like a jewel if it is polished. A mind which presently is clouded by illusions originating from the innate darkness of life is like a tarnished mirror, but once it is polished it will become clear, reflecting the enlightenment of immutable truth. Arouse deep faith and polish your mirror night and day. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
DeleteWhat then does myo signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our lives from moment to moment, which the mind cannot comprehend nor words express. When you look into your own mind at any moment, you perceive neither color nor form to verify that it exists. Yet you still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur to you. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the reality of all things. Myo is the name given to the mystic nature of life, and ho to its manifestations.
Renge, the lotus flower, symbolizes the wonder of this Law. Once you realize that your own life is the Mystic Law, you will realize that so are the lives of all others. That realization is the mystic kyo, or sutra. It is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our minds, from which spring both good and evil, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law. If you have deep faith in this truth and chant Myoho-renge-kyo, you are certain to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime.
That is why the sutra states, "After my death, you must embrace this sutra. Those who do so shall travel the straight road to Buddhahood." Never doubt in the slightest, but keep your faith and attain enlightenment in this lifetime. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
Respectfully,
Nichiren
Noel, >>the passage in the Maka Shikan, "Although they study Buddhism, their views revert to those of non-Buddhists."
Delete>>refers to you, Noel-- disregarding whichever sutra passages and writings of Nichiren that don't suit you- believing your mind itself, all by itself IS BUDDHA. >"
Your good friend, stav, has noted in detail how you diverge from the teachings of Nichiren and shakyamuni. How amazing and compassionate was his attempt to convert you to the teachings you claim to uphold?? A truly praise worthy attempt, in my opinion!!
"Because they turn their backs on their Buddha nature, the Thus Come One of the Dharma body ...[they] cannot be called entities of Myoho-renge-kyo"- that's YOU, Noel --
So, what you are perceiving and calling *revelations* are just delusions from your befuddled state, of mind.
You are not alone in assuming you are *already* Buddha via this Gosho -- [SGI/NST & Nichiren -shu make arrogant assumptions and slander in the same manner that you employ]
Mark clarified that the *questionable* status of "On Attaining Buddhahood..." is due to the timing of the writing- very early- and bearing the influence of Nichiren's Tendai schooling. The Tendai school. likewise noted by Nichiren to have been under the influence of the workings of the king devil, AKA Zen doctrines, is one of the more difficult schools to expose---
However, Noel, if you keep reading Nichiren's writings, your error will become clear to you . If you chant with the icihinen to embrace , [rather than *re-write* the Lotus Sutra via misinterpretations of Nichiren's writings] you will purify your senses...
~Katie
Thanks Mark for providing this platform Eagle Peak Blog and for allowing this discussion to take place Namu Myoho Renge Kyo
ReplyDeleteThanks Mark for providing this platform Eagle Peak Blog and for allowing this discussion to take place Namu Myoho Renge Kyo
ReplyDeleteBy the way Noel in case of your mind fluctuations just remind you in this closing mail that you have been presented with the correct teachings that Buddhas don't retrograde and your wrong conceptions and believes have been defeated and that is the reason why no further discussion is taking place on that not because of fear of your profound realization and challenge but simply of being tired repeating the same things.
ReplyDeleteTHE END
Stavros;"The liberated reaching a stage of maturity several option are open to it depends of its line of progress and realization different possibilities presenting themselves at the same time for developed souls such as, - merger back, lingering for eternity enjoying the difference of unity, returning as a Master who can help, engaging with creation as a realized being, participating in the new adventure of transformation into eternity without individual end etc etc. "
Delete"So if you take That as your Ultimate Self as the Ultimate "You" so to speak than yes it is 'You' or more precisely That who will become and is becoming all these again and again but not in the individual sense of Noel as an individual continuation."
So you may return as a master for all eternity without an individual end that has no karmic individual continuation from the Stavros of this life. So this is what you mean by "And for your information as I said many times before the path which I follow is the last of eternal individual progression."
Or maybe you will merge back as a rock enjoying the differences as you have the habit of doing
Or engaging with creation as a realized being, participating in the new adventure of transformation into eternity without individual end, like what I'm doing now
"By the way Noel in case of your mind fluctuations just remind you in this closing mail that you have been presented with the correct teachings that Buddhas don't retrograde and your wrong conceptions and believes have been defeated"
DeleteThank you for reiterating this, Stav!
" and that is the reason why no further discussion is taking place on that not because of fear of your profound realization and challenge "
Yes, I agree!
"but simply of being tired repeating the same things."
that Noel refuses to acknowledge...
It is wise, I agree-- to END this discussion, since the tenor of Noel's discourse has become like the buzzzzzing sound of a frenzied gadfly.
I just want to end by saying,
It has truly been fortunate for me to encounter you ,Stav-
MANY THANKS TO NOEL -- for the opportunity!!
All the Best,
~Katie
I acknowledge what has been said but don't agree with some concepts that i consider to be dysfunctional incoherent nonsensical outlooks that like minded people like you both agree on and reiforce oneanothers delusions
DeleteBuzzzzz-buzzzzzzzzz-bzzzzzzzzzzzz~~~~~~~~~~~~
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