Mark: Ryokan was Ritsu Chris, a Therevadan, a Hinayanist, a "keeper" of the precepts. If you wish to debate with us you had better bone up.
Chris: Well Mark, you are right. I was under the impression that he was a Shingon priest, but he is most famous for building bridges and roads, and then making money from them. Thank you for the point. It's good you know your history.
Perhaps I was thinking of Ryuzobo, in any case the priests called upon to offer prayer for rain were Shingon.
Mark: No. It was Ryokan. If you don't know what you were thinking, how can anyone else be expected to know.
Mark: The answers are right there to every one of your enquires.
> You have sent me quote after quote proving to me how Nichiren Daishonin deeply respects >his teacher, Buddha Shakyamuni. This isn't new news to me or any other SGI member.
> The problem sir, is altering Nichiren's Three Treasures and Three Great Secret Laws. >This is hardly showing respect for either Shakyamuni Buddha or Nichiren.
Chris: You quote things that nobody disagrees with and then insist that you have won a debate.
Mark: You are either disengenuous or blind. That is why I am so hard on you and your SGI comrades. Nevertheless, I realize why you are incapable of seeing the dirt on your face. You do not have a proper mirror. Your Gohonzon is not an accurate representation of the true object of worship and therefore, it is impossible for you to see clearly. Shoju will not work to awaken you from your poisoned mind.
Chris: How Mappo of you. The three treasures are the Buddha, the Priest and the Law.
Mark: Yes, THE Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra, not Amida, Dainichi, Yakushi, or Ikeda cough cough. The Priest is, of course, the Great Priest, Nichiren Daishonin
Chris: The formulation of them differs between the various Nichiren Shu sects and the
Fuji School. It is hardly altering Nichiren's three treasures to disagree with *you* on their formulation.
Mark: Read the words Chris. Even your mentor is coming around. This has been proven by his words in "Space and Eternal Life", published by Journeyman Press this year.
Chris: You are hardly Nichiren anymore than I am.
Mark: I am much more faithful to the teachings of the Master than you or any SGI or Taisekaji member alive or dead and still, I am unworthy to be called a disciple of Nichiren Daishonin. Where does that leave you?
>However you are contradicting the spirit of the Daishonin and even yourself when >you say......
"I will only debate with the SGI Headquarters"
> You are foolish if you think the Daishonin debated every Tom, Dick and Harry who >approached him. The Daishonin, writes: "From now on, you need not hold debates >in Shimosa. Having defeated Ryosho-bo and Shi’nen-bo, were you to debate with >others, it would only dilute the effect." (The Third doctrine). The SGI headquarters >has influence. You >have no influence and even if I defeat you and your shallow >arguments, I fear that you have neither the sincerity nor the guts to convert to the >superior teachings.
Chris: Nichiren said this with the larger audience in mind, and with the knowledge that any future debates would only involve a rehash of already discussed points, or a reformulation of previous beliefs to make them sound more plausible. It is hardly the same as declaring victory and refusing to say any more. That is a cowards way. Nichiren would have talked to anyone who came to inquire with him on Buddhism, or else would have referred the person to one of his leutenants. Mark: Gary did not come to me to inquire about Buddhism. Gary came to debate and he came into our "house" to do so. Since I have defeated dozens of SGI members, some more emminent than he, of what purpose would it serve, if he doesn't make a commitment to convert if defeated?
> I can just smell the arrogance in your words. No "Guts" but yet you mentioned that >you, yourself "fear". Explain that one to me.
> Mark: The Daishonin himself often used the principle of fear. Would you like me to >point it out >to you?
Chris : This is a strange dialogue to post as part of a purported debate. What do you fear Mark, seeming a fool or being a fool. Fools hate seeming the fool.
Mark: Gary doesn't even read what I write. He apparently picked the word "fear" out of context, from who knows where, maybe even from a quote by Nichiren. My record of debating with the SGI speaks for itself and the SGI'srecord of avoiding debate too, speaks for itself. Funny thing, after this reply to Gary, I have not heard from him again. Who is it that is fearful?
> Gary I have the "guts" to uphold my practice on Nichiren Daishonin's >Buddhism until my death.
Chris: This is a commendable attitude.
Mark: We have proven that neither you, Chris, nor the Soka Gakkai practice the Daishonin's Buddhism but rather the Buddhism of Nichiu, Nichikan and Ikeda.If you open your eyes, read the Sado Gosho and chant very hard, you will see that many people die for shallow affairs.
Chris: This goes back to the centuries old libel of Nichiu as the "forger" of the DaiGohonzon. I'm not done researching this, I have not dismissed the arguments, however it is clear that the Daishonin intended us to revere the Gohonzon as oursupreme Mandala. However, there is sufficient evidence to refute the charge that Nichiu forged the Dai Gohonzon. You have not won any debate as long as you merely pronounce the words of a rival sect.
Mark: Certainly it isn't we who has changed Nichiren's ThreeTreasures and Three Great Secret Laws. It is the Nichiren Shoshu and the SGI that have altered the teachings. It is equally obvious that Nichiu, Nichikan and Ikeda rather than Nichiren are your teachers. Hell, you even have a Nikken or a Nichikan Gohonzon rather than a Nichiren Gohonzon. If you were ever to exchange your Nichikan Gohonzon for a Nichiren Gohonzon, you would see the difference in no time at all. You would experience such clarity of thought that you would never ever be misled again.
Chris: This debate has antecedents in the time of Nichiu, and no one has been convinced so far. You criticized me for not doing my homework, however I am a seeker of the truth, coming at it from the view of faith in the Law. You are listening to people who are advancing their own views, but you don't knowfor yourself.
Mark: I do know. You too may know also. The knowing is in the Three Proofs. Ihave seen my unresolved karmic hindrences disappear as if frost or dew in the sun, within weeks after receiving my Nichiren Gohonzon and have seen the same with my ex-SGI converts. I also see the result of the Nichiren Shoshu and SGI as organizations, and the so-called Actual Proof of their priests, leaders and members. Therefore, even disreguarding Nichiu's, Nichikan's, Nikken's and Ikeda's words for a moment, it is a reasonable inference to know that Nichiu etal's teachings are mistaken merely from the perspective of Actual Proof alone.
Chris:Until I know better, I will believe in the Dai Gohonzon. Even if the Dai-Gohonzon could be proved to be a fake, I will believe in the Gohonzon, because that makes sense.
Mark: We have presented 10 points that prove the Daigohonzon a forgery,thoroughly refuting your teacherrs Toda and Nittatsu
> Gary: Your definition of "guts" is very obscure.
> Mark: You should open your mind to the truth.
> Gary: Seeing yourself as being "above" each SGI member is simply a reflection of >your arrogance.
Chris: Gary say's it and hit's it on the nail. In the absence of proof allegations of slandering the Law are sectarian and personal views.
Mark: The words of the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin don't count? Tell that to Nichiren. Try and explain that off to yourself but a fact is a fact. You ignore the words of Nichiren time and time again and create arbitrary and ornate rhetoric to promote the Fuji school views. You are enemies of the Buddha and Nichiren. These are not sectarian and personal views. the Our views are affirmed by all the Bodhisattvas and Buddhas of the universe.
Chris: Nichiren had hard evidence for his assertation, moreover he attacked persons who attacked or ignored the lotus Sutra, not upheld it.
Mark: The Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren Daishonin is our hard evidence. You think you uphold the Lotus because your leaders have taught you that you do. You probably hadn't even read it till recently. If I am wrong, I apologize but I know from experience and dialogue that many SGI senior leaders, even those practicing fortwenty years or more, have only recently picked it up and read it for the first time.
Chris: Had the Tientai Sect not adopted Shingon practices, he would have not declared it an evil sect. However, even correct Tientai, he said, is shakumon in comparison with the actual practice of chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Mark: Point being? Have you ever seen us criticize the SGI or Nichiren Shoshu for chanting the Daimoku as the principle practice? It is your object of worship and your view of the Treasures of Buddha and Priest that is mistaken.
You should read again, Teaching, Practice and Proof. One who is correct is seated above one who is incorrect. Should the inferior b confused with the superior, it would be cause for regret. Teachings and practitioners both may fall into the category of superior and inferior. One who teaches the distorted doctrines of the Fuji School is inferior to one who teaches the doctrines of Nichiren Daishonin faithfully.
Chris: This is your personal opinion backed by your personal interpretations of works that can be interpreted differently, and that taken as a whole should be interpreted differently.
Mark: If you were objective, you would admit that we do little interpretating. We take the words of the Lotus Sutra and the Daishonin at face value. You guys have to, by necessity, interpret, twist and turn, to arrive at your views.
> Gary: Nichiren Daishonin viewed everyone on equal terms.
> Mark: In one sense. In another sense, he pointed out differences, the superiority >and inferiority of the various teachings as well as of the adherents of the >various teachings.
Chris: Nichiren's motivation was the salvation of the individual and the world, he did shakubuku and announced a new teaching because it was his duty to fulfill the teachings of the Lotus Sutra. He pointed out these things in order to save people from suffering, not to score debating points.
Mark: You must be a psychic to know that my motivation differs from that ofthe Daishonin's. I don't even question the motivation of most SGI members.I question the reality of your faith, your object of worship, and your very liberal interpretation of the teachings.
Chris: He would have been aghast (but not surprised) at the behavior of his disciples after his death, breaking off into little contending sects on minor doctrinal assertions.
Mark: Yes, he would be aghast at the perverse men of the Nichiren Shoshu and Soka Gakkai who have altered his teachings. These are not minor doctrinal assertions. As I pointed out many times, the Daishonin spent at nearly a quarter of his preaching life illuminating the Treasure of the Buddha and the correct object of worship.
Are you saying the Daishonin was a fool for spending so much time clarifying the doctrines that the Fuji School has misunderstand and alter? If you look at yourself and look at the teachings and tell yourself that what we are saying is not the truth, it is proof you do not have a real Gohonzon and you lack a clear mirror. I make this declaration because I am confident that my views are correct in light of the Lotus Sutra and teachings of Nichiren.
To be continued........