Dennis [Alan Groves] Gohonzon Bestowed almost 7 years ago
Alan now, after 7 years, claims I sent him a damaged Gohonzon. However, until now he never mentioned that it was damaged. BTW, he had the Nichiren Shoshu priests burn it and now he is with the Soka Gakkai. How confused is he?
Actually Mark, I never claimed you sent me a damaged Gohonzon. I said that the one I received had issues after transportation. You may recall, all those years back, telling me how hard you'd tried to adhere the Gohonzon to the scroll I'd sent you leaving it for days with a heavy Buddhas head on it and still having some issues. As far as my practice goes, yes, I fully admit to being confused for a number of years about what sect or how to practice. I certainly don't think I am alone in that. I am and know of, as I know you do, many others who have had this predicament. I am not ashamed of it, although it pains me. I really thought the Kempon Hokke that you introduced me to was the correct path. However, it is no secret how that went. I commented on ARBN the same as I will comment here, in as much that when you shakabukued me it was not the feeling of loss and defeat that I expected, but a feeling of being able to see. What I could not stand was the split between you and Rev Tsuchiya. It made the things that I believed from you about the KHS feel like a painful lie. That's why I went to the SGI. Also, to correct your comments, Nichiren Shoshu priests did not burn the Gohonzon. A Nichiren Shoshu Hokkeko member, from the USA took it outside and against my wishes and those of the Thai Nichiren Shoshu Hokkeko present (who wanted it given to the visiting priests) gleefully burning it, with the Thai woman who introduced me to NST, physically stopping me from physically stopping him. In the words of someone I spoke of to this later that day, after Gojukai. "Americans think differently to English. If I invite English to my company and he sees the no smoking sign, he will ask if he can smoke, if I say no, he wont mention it again. If I invite American he will see the no smoking sign and instruct me to fetch him an ashtray" After these years of being back within the SGI, am I sure I'm in the right place? To be honest, which is what I like to be - even though it keep biting me in the butt, I am not sure.
I am happy though if my confusion brings other people forward with theirs so they have the opportunity to deal with it. If it's only me, then I must be considerably more messed up that I thought.
alan ...your story is laughable. bottom line is you follow personalities not the law. also your karma won't allow you to hear nichiren and what he as the emissary of the original buddha, truly lived and taught. this is your karma and your own fault.
no one who has any real faith in the lotus sutra could stay with or return to the sgi/nst cults. impossible !
regarding tsuchiya and the kempon hokke : years ago mark was able to discern exactly how wrong and absurd the teachings, faith and practice of the sgi was. through a meeting with a kempon priest who gave conceat answers in line with what nichiren taught, mark did what he could do for buddhism. this priest retired shorty after mark and he met in new york. because the kempon promoted a nichiren gohonzon and due to the fact that the founder of the kempo(nichiju)original cry some 600 years ago was to return buddhism back to the orthodox teachings as taught by shakyamuni/nichiren, the kempon hokke seemed like a promising route.
long story short...as time went by we all found out that the kempon although not as bad as the sgi/nst promoted the preparatory teachings in line with the nichiren shu. they do this for profit and selfish gain. much like the sgi/nst.
rather than remain complicit in , and supportive of slander, mark, shinkei, myself and others spoke out about various teachings and matters. rather than have a honest discussion, the phony priest tsuchiya posted lies about us all and would not allow us to discuss the matter openly.
alan...the buddha foretold that in the latter age only the very few would be able to even strive to uphold the lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo), and that many would not. we are the few. most people today in the shoshu, the shu, or the sgi do not know even the basic's. if you claim nichirens buddhism, this is the only place to be. or you can continue as a deluded slander with no courage. what is it that nichiren taught? chant and you can get anything you want?..............NO !
Hi Greg, Long time no speak. You were obviously more involved in the "KHS USA" debacle than I was. understandably so. From my perspective, which I still smart from - Mark, yourself, Jerry (Shinkei) and others went to great lengths to expound Kempon Hokke to anyone with an ear. Great passion, great forthrightness - no problem with that and I, in time accepted and practiced accordingly. Then things went from - this is the land where I intend to build a temple, to Jerry is travelling to the head temple in Japan to be ordained as a KHS priest (both things I was very excited about at the time) to The KHS in Japan are a bunch of no good ichicantaas, to infighting, to a split and so on..... It might have all been evident from your more knowledgeable side, but I can assure you from mine, it was heart breaking. I very nearly stopped chanting altogether. Close friends in the UK, an elderly married couple who introduced me to SGI, but are certainly not your archetypal SGI members who never turned their backs on me when I joined KHS, felt for me and with their help I continued chanting and rejoined the SGI. Maybe being an only child and living in a foreign country I am more akin to wanting to belong to an organisation. Not sure about that. But I am sure that they were there for me when I needed them and for that I am grateful. If not I would have kicked this practice in the bin years ago. Unlike Mark, yourself and some others, I certainly did not see the train crash coming. But thank you for explaining more about it. I have to ask though, if the KHS seemed like a promising route, do't you think in hindsight it would have been better to check them out thoroughly rather than take everything on note and commence aggressive propagation?
okay alan... here is the straight up truth. there are no sects that exists that have remained faithful to what the original buddha and nichiren taught. again, going back to 150 years after nichirens death, we see that through the eyes of the well respected priest nichiju, the founder of the kempon, that the various sects were mixing existing thought and practice with what nichiren actually taught.in other words, nichiren shoshu as well as nichiren shu have had more than 600 hundred years to fabricate and mix lotus sutra buddhism( the buddhas final conclusion), with what was easy for the peoples to uphold and support. for many years what has been promoted as nichirens buddhism is a perversion and what it equates to is.... people manipulation and a money making business. the most egregious of all is the sgi who's parent is the nichiren shoshu. the sgi mixes with christian teachings because america and much of europe are christian based.
often what nichiren wrote and encouraged was for us to use the clear mirror of the lotus sutra to judge things and ultimately to judge oneself. the lotus sutra was taught in the former day, but it was meant to be spread in the latter day. nichiren...the leader of the B O E, was ordained by the teacher of the lotus sutra to appear and propagate the buddhas final conclusion in the latter day. we find this announcement in the lotus sutra.
what nichiren lived and taught ...is the lotus sutra in the latter day. question...does nichirens experience look at all like ikedas life and experience? hardly !
the latter day is predicted to be a time when the realms of avarice, anger and stupidity are rampant. hence...the lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo) was prescribed as the medicine. what we see today is not the lotus sutra being upheld, but instead slandered. so much for the sgi/nst's kosen rufu! can we agree on this ?
mark has faith in the teachings of nichiren. years ago many of us did not know that none of the so called sects followed nichiren. through research and experience we now know that this is a sad truth. had mark lived in japan , he could have seen for himself. as far as i know....no one has been harmed by marks promotion of the kempon. for most , it was a learning experience i know i learned a lot. one of the things we learned is that many of the gosho zenshu that the shoshu and sgi use are not accurate translations. they have been manipulated to fit their agendas. more accurate are the noppa translations. there are reasons for this. so in the long run, rubbing up against the kempon was a good experience. however, they are slanderers and we had to part company.
bottom line...one should follow nichiren, the teacher for the latter day. if what any person or group professes egregiously conflicts with what nichiren taught, one should part company. mark and his site ,eagle peak, has remained true to the correct teachings and as i said previously, anyone who truly follows nichiren , in the latter day, will incur some resentment and hatred. this the buddha warned. one can study this for oneself.
sgi of the shoshu is the worst choice. unless you just want to be in a club/cult. what do you see when you read a gosho? buddhism is extremely profound and deep. a paragraph or a page or two is not enough. good luck alan. there is much one could read...i would encourage you to read the "never disparaging" chapter in the lotus sutra. this is one of the chapters nichiren identified with strongly.
Truthfully, we were all screwed up from our SGI cult experience and it took us years to rely on the Law and not persons. Follow Nichiren to the best of your ability and you can't go wrong... everything Nichiren teaches, not like a Chinese buffet (the SGI way). For example the exclusive faith and practice of the LS(eschewing interfaith).
I'll tell you what does make me feel better about my confusion. Looking at what some of the other ex KHS members/supporters are doing now if facebook is anything to go by. Steve Milburn, remember him? Nice bloke, he went Catholic. Claudia, she went Tendai, and good old Fred seems to have gone Guns and Trump!! Surely SGI can't be labelled worse than any of that?? LOL!
good observations alan...the kempon hokke is not responsible for these people's karma, but, it didn't have the power to change their negative karma either. the teachings say... if one takes FAITH in the lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo), ones neg karma will change like dew in the morning sun. this does not mean...take faith in ikeda, the high priest, the phony dai-gohonzon, rev tsuchiya, mark rogow, the priest shinkei, greg romero or our beautiful katie higgins. it means exactly what it says. nichiren teaches that if one heats a steel sword and pounds it hard it will bring out the impurities and eventually it will desolve its imperfections and make a perfect sword.
in like manner.. if ones faith and practice is correct...it will bring out that persons karma and imperfections which in real life maybe somewhat painful or uncomfortable. so , the more correct a persons faith and practice is...the more that persons life will be pounded and forged. this is not my arbitrary opinion, you can find this in nichirens explanations to his followers and even about his own life experience. regardless...one will receive protection and will experience the joy of the law.
interesting , milburn recently emaiedl me after 5 years. he asked me if i was still chanting. i think he misses the real teachings. he was catholic before. he made some very good causes but became discouraged when he was faced with the reality of trying to uphold the L S in the latter age. his failing was that he did not understand that this is all predicted in the teachings. nichirens life is a perfect clear mirror.
claudia has deep roots in tendai, the nichiren shoshu has mixed the the lotus sutra with tendai. fred is fred and you are correct. they made some high causes but when their faith was tested they recanted. nichiren teaches to deepen ones faith when obstacles arise...as they surely will. truthfully alan, most people cannot continue when their faith is tested...due to weak faith or misguided faith. we understand. only a few can continue and uphold. these are the teachings...again , not my opinion. eventually they will find their way back, although it may have to be next lifetime.
you bring up an interesting point about these people alan, close and yet so far ! however,
the sgi/nst is a thousand times worse then what they have done. sorry , as a follower of the eternal shakyamuni/nichiren, i am oblicgated to tell you the truth. we have no hard feeling though. cheers !
Much worse Alan. As Nichiren teaches, the closer a teaching is to the Perfect teaching, the more the practitioner will be lead astray. That is why Nichiren taught that the most evil were his errant former disciples who continued to chant the Daimoku while mixing it with other beliefs, then the Tendai [Mikkyo] who mixed the Tientai and Shingon, and then the Shingon.
Hi Greg and Mark, Thank you - the point I am trying to make is that following Nichiren's teachings and Shakyamuni Lotus Sutra seems very difficult in the latter day - as Greg and yourself have commented many times - and of course as both Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra do also. It seems (in this regard) no matter if one chooses to be independent, or belong to any organisation, temple etc.. people stop practicing. I don't necessarily believe that in this regard, this issue is unique to SGI, but effects all.
Very difficult to continue to chant. 95% of SGI-USA in history quit. However, it seems that many fewer as a percent of independents quit. Perhaps because we try and not lie to anyone, unlike SGI. sgi
ikeda is a serial liar, the nichiren shoshu priesthood are serial liars. rev tsuchiya is a serial liar, trump is a serial liar..... what the buddha and his lotus sutra has foretold...its good to know that the buddha and his teacher for the latter are not liars. otherwise, i am sure we would become desperately discouraged. rather we are encouraged as nichiren was ! FAITH, PRACTICE AND STUDY !
Actually Mark, I never claimed you sent me a damaged Gohonzon. I said that the one I received had issues after transportation. You may recall, all those years back, telling me how hard you'd tried to adhere the Gohonzon to the scroll I'd sent you leaving it for days with a heavy Buddhas head on it and still having some issues.
ReplyDeleteAs far as my practice goes, yes, I fully admit to being confused for a number of years about what sect or how to practice. I certainly don't think I am alone in that. I am and know of, as I know you do, many others who have had this predicament. I am not ashamed of it, although it pains me. I really thought the Kempon Hokke that you introduced me to was the correct path. However, it is no secret how that went.
I commented on ARBN the same as I will comment here, in as much that when you shakabukued me it was not the feeling of loss and defeat that I expected, but a feeling of being able to see. What I could not stand was the split between you and Rev Tsuchiya. It made the things that I believed from you about the KHS feel like a painful lie. That's why I went to the SGI.
Also, to correct your comments, Nichiren Shoshu priests did not burn the Gohonzon. A Nichiren Shoshu Hokkeko member, from the USA took it outside and against my wishes and those of the Thai Nichiren Shoshu Hokkeko present (who wanted it given to the visiting priests) gleefully burning it, with the Thai woman who introduced me to NST, physically stopping me from physically stopping him. In the words of someone I spoke of to this later that day, after Gojukai. "Americans think differently to English. If I invite English to my company and he sees the no smoking sign, he will ask if he can smoke, if I say no, he wont mention it again. If I invite American he will see the no smoking sign and instruct me to fetch him an ashtray"
After these years of being back within the SGI, am I sure I'm in the right place? To be honest, which is what I like to be - even though it keep biting me in the butt, I am not sure.
I am happy though if my confusion brings other people forward with theirs so they have the opportunity to deal with it. If it's only me, then I must be considerably more messed up that I thought.
alan ...your story is laughable. bottom line is you follow personalities not the law. also your karma won't allow you to hear nichiren and what he as the emissary of the original buddha, truly lived and taught. this is your karma and your own fault.
Deleteno one who has any real faith in the lotus sutra could stay with or return to the sgi/nst cults. impossible !
regarding tsuchiya and the kempon hokke : years ago mark was able to discern exactly how wrong and absurd the teachings, faith and practice of the sgi was. through a meeting with a kempon priest who gave conceat answers in line with what nichiren taught, mark did what he could do for buddhism. this priest retired shorty after mark and he met in new york. because the kempon promoted a nichiren gohonzon and due to the fact that the founder of the kempo(nichiju)original cry some 600 years ago was to return buddhism back to the orthodox teachings as taught by shakyamuni/nichiren, the kempon hokke seemed like a promising route.
long story short...as time went by we all found out that the kempon although not as bad as the sgi/nst promoted the preparatory teachings in line with the nichiren shu. they do this for profit and selfish gain. much like the sgi/nst.
rather than remain complicit in , and supportive of slander, mark, shinkei, myself and others spoke out about various teachings and matters. rather than have a honest discussion, the phony priest tsuchiya posted lies about us all and would not allow us to discuss the matter openly.
alan...the buddha foretold that in the latter age only the very few would be able to even strive to uphold the lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo), and that many would not. we are the few. most people today in the shoshu, the shu, or the sgi do not know even the basic's. if you claim nichirens buddhism, this is the only place to be. or you can continue as a deluded slander with no courage. what is it that nichiren taught? chant and you can get anything you want?..............NO !
good luck alan.
Hi Greg,
ReplyDeleteLong time no speak.
You were obviously more involved in the "KHS USA" debacle than I was. understandably so. From my perspective, which I still smart from - Mark, yourself, Jerry (Shinkei) and others went to great lengths to expound Kempon Hokke to anyone with an ear. Great passion, great forthrightness - no problem with that and I, in time accepted and practiced accordingly. Then things went from - this is the land where I intend to build a temple, to Jerry is travelling to the head temple in Japan to be ordained as a KHS priest (both things I was very excited about at the time) to The KHS in Japan are a bunch of no good ichicantaas, to infighting, to a split and so on.....
It might have all been evident from your more knowledgeable side, but I can assure you from mine, it was heart breaking.
I very nearly stopped chanting altogether. Close friends in the UK, an elderly married couple who introduced me to SGI, but are certainly not your archetypal SGI members who never turned their backs on me when I joined KHS, felt for me and with their help I continued chanting and rejoined the SGI.
Maybe being an only child and living in a foreign country I am more akin to wanting to belong to an organisation. Not sure about that. But I am sure that they were there for me when I needed them and for that I am grateful. If not I would have kicked this practice in the bin years ago.
Unlike Mark, yourself and some others, I certainly did not see the train crash coming.
But thank you for explaining more about it.
I have to ask though, if the KHS seemed like a promising route, do't you think in hindsight it would have been better to check them out thoroughly rather than take everything on note and commence aggressive propagation?
okay alan... here is the straight up truth. there are no sects that exists that have remained faithful to what the original buddha and nichiren taught. again, going back to 150 years after nichirens death, we see that through the eyes of the well respected priest nichiju, the founder of the kempon, that the various sects were mixing existing thought and practice with what nichiren actually taught.in other words, nichiren shoshu as well as nichiren shu have had more than 600 hundred years to fabricate and mix lotus sutra buddhism( the buddhas final conclusion), with what was easy for the peoples to uphold and support. for many years what has been promoted as nichirens buddhism is a perversion and what it equates to is.... people manipulation and a money making business. the most egregious of all is the sgi who's parent is the nichiren shoshu. the sgi mixes with christian teachings because america and much of europe are christian based.
Deleteoften what nichiren wrote and encouraged was for us to use the clear mirror of the lotus sutra to judge things and ultimately to judge oneself. the lotus sutra was taught in the former day, but it was meant to be spread in the latter day. nichiren...the leader of the B O E, was ordained by the teacher of the lotus sutra to appear and propagate the buddhas final conclusion in the latter day. we find this announcement in the lotus sutra.
what nichiren lived and taught ...is the lotus sutra in the latter day. question...does nichirens experience look at all like ikedas life and experience? hardly !
the latter day is predicted to be a time when the realms of avarice, anger and stupidity are rampant. hence...the lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo) was prescribed as the medicine. what we see today is not the lotus sutra being upheld, but instead slandered. so much for the sgi/nst's kosen rufu! can we agree on this ?
mark has faith in the teachings of nichiren. years ago many of us did not know that none of the so called sects followed nichiren. through research and experience we now know that this is a sad truth. had mark lived in japan , he could have seen for himself. as far as i know....no one has been harmed by marks promotion of the kempon. for most , it was a learning experience i know i learned a lot. one of the things we learned is that many of the gosho zenshu that the shoshu and sgi use are not accurate translations. they have been manipulated to fit their agendas. more accurate are the noppa translations. there are reasons for this. so in the long run, rubbing up against the kempon was a good experience. however, they are slanderers and we had to part company.
bottom line...one should follow nichiren, the teacher for the latter day. if what any person or group professes egregiously conflicts with what nichiren taught, one should part company. mark and his site ,eagle peak, has remained true to the correct teachings and as i said previously, anyone who truly follows nichiren , in the latter day, will incur some resentment and hatred. this the buddha warned. one can study this for oneself.
sgi of the shoshu is the worst choice. unless you just want to be in a club/cult. what do you see when you read a gosho? buddhism is extremely profound and deep. a paragraph or a page or two is not enough. good luck alan. there is much one could read...i would encourage you to read the "never disparaging" chapter in the lotus sutra. this is one of the chapters nichiren identified with strongly.
buddhism in japan has long been just a business. therefore what they export to other countries is also just a business.
DeleteTruthfully, we were all screwed up from our SGI cult experience and it took us years to rely on the Law and not persons. Follow Nichiren to the best of your ability and you can't go wrong... everything Nichiren teaches, not like a Chinese buffet (the SGI way). For example the exclusive faith and practice of the LS(eschewing interfaith).
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Greg and Mark.
ReplyDeleteThank you. I understand what you are saying.
cheers alan...please take good care. more could be explained...but it gets long. best wishes !
DeleteI'll tell you what does make me feel better about my confusion. Looking at what some of the other ex KHS members/supporters are doing now if facebook is anything to go by. Steve Milburn, remember him? Nice bloke, he went Catholic. Claudia, she went Tendai, and good old Fred seems to have gone Guns and Trump!!
ReplyDeleteSurely SGI can't be labelled worse than any of that?? LOL!
good observations alan...the kempon hokke is not responsible for these people's karma, but, it didn't have the power to change their negative karma either. the teachings say... if one takes FAITH in the lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo), ones neg karma will change like dew in the morning sun. this does not mean...take faith in ikeda, the high priest, the phony dai-gohonzon, rev tsuchiya, mark rogow, the priest shinkei, greg romero or our beautiful katie higgins. it means exactly what it says. nichiren teaches that if one heats a steel sword and pounds it hard it will bring out the impurities and eventually it will desolve its imperfections and make a perfect sword.
Deletein like manner.. if ones faith and practice is correct...it will bring out that persons karma and imperfections which in real life maybe somewhat painful or uncomfortable. so , the more correct a persons faith and practice is...the more that persons life will be pounded and forged. this is not my arbitrary opinion, you can find this in nichirens explanations to his followers and even about his own life experience. regardless...one will receive protection and will experience the joy of the law.
interesting , milburn recently emaiedl me after 5 years. he asked me if i was still chanting. i think he misses the real teachings. he was catholic before. he made some very good causes but became discouraged when he was faced with the reality of trying to uphold the L S in the latter age. his failing was that he did not understand that this is all predicted in the teachings. nichirens life is a perfect clear mirror.
claudia has deep roots in tendai, the nichiren shoshu has mixed the the lotus sutra with tendai. fred is fred and you are correct. they made some high causes but when their faith was tested they recanted. nichiren teaches to deepen ones faith when obstacles arise...as they surely will. truthfully alan, most people cannot continue when their faith is tested...due to weak faith or misguided faith. we understand. only a few can continue and uphold. these are the teachings...again , not my opinion. eventually they will find their way back, although it may have to be next lifetime.
you bring up an interesting point about these people alan, close and yet so far ! however,
the sgi/nst is a thousand times worse then what they have done. sorry , as a follower of the eternal shakyamuni/nichiren, i am oblicgated to tell you the truth. we have no hard feeling though. cheers !
Much worse Alan. As Nichiren teaches, the closer a teaching is to the Perfect teaching, the more the practitioner will be lead astray. That is why Nichiren taught that the most evil were his errant former disciples who continued to chant the Daimoku while mixing it with other beliefs, then the Tendai [Mikkyo] who mixed the Tientai and Shingon, and then the Shingon.
DeleteExcellent Greg. I'm sure the Buddhas too are heartened. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteHi Greg and Mark,
ReplyDeleteThank you - the point I am trying to make is that following Nichiren's teachings and Shakyamuni Lotus Sutra seems very difficult in the latter day - as Greg and yourself have commented many times - and of course as both Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra do also.
It seems (in this regard) no matter if one chooses to be independent, or belong to any organisation, temple etc.. people stop practicing. I don't necessarily believe that in this regard, this issue is unique to SGI, but effects all.
Very difficult to continue to chant. 95% of SGI-USA in history quit. However, it seems that many fewer as a percent of independents quit. Perhaps because we try and not lie to anyone, unlike SGI.
ReplyDeletesgi
ikeda is a serial liar, the nichiren shoshu priesthood are serial liars. rev tsuchiya is a serial liar, trump is a serial liar..... what the buddha and his lotus sutra has foretold...its good to know that the buddha and his teacher for the latter are not liars. otherwise, i am sure we would become desperately discouraged. rather we are encouraged as nichiren was ! FAITH, PRACTICE AND STUDY !
Deletefor the latter day..... .
Delete