Kathy unsuccessfully attempts to rebutt our thread about Shakyamuni being
the Eternal Buddha. For that I commend her. Where are her fellow believers?
She writes the following:
Truly I congratulate her for finally taking up the core doctrinal issue we
have been pushing for in these long months of debate. I do commend her
courage.
First, she admits that "No one questions that, in the Lotus Sutra,
Shakyamuni entrusted the teaching of the Lotus Sutra...... to the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth." Then, she raises the question that if
Nichiren fulfilled his role as Jogyo, did that make him the True Buddha?
This is quite a significant leap of logic with no Gosho or Sutra passage
to even infer it. I would ask Kathy, "What passages lead you make this
conjecture?"
The Lotus Sutra, in Chapter 16, states, "Then he sent a messenger back to
his children, telling them that their father has passed away."
Nichiren then states in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "The phrase, 'send
messenger back,' in the 'Duration of the Life of the Buddha' chapter,
which I have just cited, refers to those bodhisattvas who were called out
from underground."
It is clear that Shakyamuni is the "Father," and Nichiren is the
"Messenger."
Next Kathy brings up another area where, due to the lack of genuine
Buddhist training and study within the SGI and NSS, is misunderstood
during these debates by the SGI and NSS members.
Specifically they do not understand the concept of the Three Buddha
Bodies. When we say that Shakaymuni is the Eternal Buddha, we do not mean
the Shakyamuni who lived in India. The three buddha bodies are the
Hosshin (Dharma Body), the Hojin (Reward Body), and the Ojin (the Manifest
Body). We consider the historical Buddha the Manifest Body.
Nichiren says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "The Lord who preaches here is the
Eternal Buddha, not the Shakyamuni Buddha who attained Buddhahood for the
first time in this world under a bodhi tree in Buddhagaya."
Nichiren says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "It means that Shakyamuni Buddha,
within our minds, is an ancient Buddha without beginning, manifesting
Himself in three bodies, and attained Buddhahood in the eternal past
described as 500 dust-particle kalpa ago."
And, Nichiren says, "Does this not mean, that Shakyamuni Buddha, who has
attained Perfect Enlightenment, is our flesh and blood, and all the merits
He has accumulated before and after attaining Buddhahood are our bones?"
Further on Nichiren say, "It is because each of our minds is equipped with
the "3,000 modes of existence" and the "three factors," namely, all living
beings, the land on which they live, and the five elements of the living
beings."
The Eternal Buddha is present in ALL our lives equally, lying dormant. It
is Myoho Renge Kyo. The Gohonzon is the graphical representation of this
Eternal Buddha. The Eternal Buddha is not an "entity." It is the source
of all existence, from which all life springs in an unending ebb and flow
of Ichinen Sanzen.
So when we say we worship the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni this is not saying
we worship the historical Buddha Shakyamuni of the Manifest Body.
Kathy, believe it or not, this is what orthodox Buddhists believe too.
Again, Nichiren says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "That is to say, it is
revealed here that all living beings in the ten realms as well as the
world in which they live manifest themselves to be eternal."
Now lets compare the two different versions of the Gosho. Remember the
past posts discussing the flaws within the Gosho Zenshu its derivitive the
Major Writings!
"It means that Shakyamuni Buddha, within our minds, is an ancient Buddha
without beginning, manifesting Himself in three bodies, and attained
Buddhahood in the eternal past described as 500 dust-particle kalpa ago."
(Kanjin Honzon Sho, pg 94)
So far pretty close! Now the MW starts to deviate significantly.
"Having thus manifested the ten divine powers, Shakyamuni Buddha
transmitted the five characters of myo, ho, ren, ge, kyo to the original
disciples of the Buddha since the eternal past, who had sprung up from
underground." (ibid, pg 140)
Kathy says, based on her flawed translation:
The *better* translation (again refer to my past post "The Gosho Zenshu is
corrupt") DOES say: Shakyamuni Buddha. It doesn't say Namu or Nam, it
says the five characters myo, ho, ren, ge, kyo! And, it does not mention
any of the specifc four great bodhisattvas! It also refers to the etenal
past.
These two translations are VERY different and do lead to significant
misunderstandings in faith, as we see from the SGI and NSS theology.
>This part of the Gosho is a discussion of what's in the Lotus
Kathy, don't forget that Nichiren referred to several of his disciples as
votaries of the Lotus Sutra. I do not believe you can draw a special
distinction aout Nichiren from this. It is consistent with the tone of
his Gosho about ALL the bodhisattvas of the earth being messengers
fulfilling the mission of the Eternal Buddha in Mappo.
Now we get to a section of the Gosho where the translation was
deliberately changed to reflect the heetical teachings of Taisekiji, lets
compare the two:
>"Now is when the Bodhisattvas of the Earth will appear in this country
"This is the very time when original disciples of the Buddha should spring
up from underground, attend both sides of the Eternal Buddha revealed in
the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, and establish in this land of
Japan the supreme object of worship in the world (Hommon no Honzon)."
(ibid, pg 160)
Kathy, reasons based on the flawed translation:
We can see that Nichiren NEVER suggests this idea, it is a fabrication of
Taisekiji's to support their heretical theology!
Kathy, Nichiren has a special message for you and all your fellows in the
SGI, when he says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "Many ignorant people would
fall into hell by slandering the five characters, but they would be saved
eventually. This is what is meant by Miao-lo in his Words and Phrases of
the Lotus Sutra: "Slanderers of the True Dharma will fall into hell but
will inevitably be saved by virtue of having heard the True Dharma." This
is the "Poison Drum" concept. You can take hope!
the Eternal Buddha. For that I commend her. Where are her fellow believers?
She writes the following:
>No one questions that, in the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni entrusted the
>teaching of the Lotus Sutra in the Latter Day of the Law to the the
>leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. The question is whether the
>Four Great Bodhisattvas are just 'messengers from Shakyamuni' or whether
>Nichiren, fulfilling his role of Bodhisattva Jogyo actually manifested
>himself as the True Buddha. That is not addressed in this quote.
>teaching of the Lotus Sutra in the Latter Day of the Law to the the
>leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth. The question is whether the
>Four Great Bodhisattvas are just 'messengers from Shakyamuni' or whether
>Nichiren, fulfilling his role of Bodhisattva Jogyo actually manifested
>himself as the True Buddha. That is not addressed in this quote.
Truly I congratulate her for finally taking up the core doctrinal issue we
have been pushing for in these long months of debate. I do commend her
courage.
First, she admits that "No one questions that, in the Lotus Sutra,
Shakyamuni entrusted the teaching of the Lotus Sutra...... to the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth." Then, she raises the question that if
Nichiren fulfilled his role as Jogyo, did that make him the True Buddha?
This is quite a significant leap of logic with no Gosho or Sutra passage
to even infer it. I would ask Kathy, "What passages lead you make this
conjecture?"
The Lotus Sutra, in Chapter 16, states, "Then he sent a messenger back to
his children, telling them that their father has passed away."
Nichiren then states in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "The phrase, 'send
messenger back,' in the 'Duration of the Life of the Buddha' chapter,
which I have just cited, refers to those bodhisattvas who were called out
from underground."
It is clear that Shakyamuni is the "Father," and Nichiren is the
"Messenger."
Next Kathy brings up another area where, due to the lack of genuine
Buddhist training and study within the SGI and NSS, is misunderstood
during these debates by the SGI and NSS members.
Specifically they do not understand the concept of the Three Buddha
Bodies. When we say that Shakaymuni is the Eternal Buddha, we do not mean
the Shakyamuni who lived in India. The three buddha bodies are the
Hosshin (Dharma Body), the Hojin (Reward Body), and the Ojin (the Manifest
Body). We consider the historical Buddha the Manifest Body.
Nichiren says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "The Lord who preaches here is the
Eternal Buddha, not the Shakyamuni Buddha who attained Buddhahood for the
first time in this world under a bodhi tree in Buddhagaya."
Nichiren says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "It means that Shakyamuni Buddha,
within our minds, is an ancient Buddha without beginning, manifesting
Himself in three bodies, and attained Buddhahood in the eternal past
described as 500 dust-particle kalpa ago."
And, Nichiren says, "Does this not mean, that Shakyamuni Buddha, who has
attained Perfect Enlightenment, is our flesh and blood, and all the merits
He has accumulated before and after attaining Buddhahood are our bones?"
Further on Nichiren say, "It is because each of our minds is equipped with
the "3,000 modes of existence" and the "three factors," namely, all living
beings, the land on which they live, and the five elements of the living
beings."
The Eternal Buddha is present in ALL our lives equally, lying dormant. It
is Myoho Renge Kyo. The Gohonzon is the graphical representation of this
Eternal Buddha. The Eternal Buddha is not an "entity." It is the source
of all existence, from which all life springs in an unending ebb and flow
of Ichinen Sanzen.
So when we say we worship the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni this is not saying
we worship the historical Buddha Shakyamuni of the Manifest Body.
>He is explaining what that quote means to us in the Latter Day. That
>quote is not referring to Shakyamuni who lived in India, it is referring
>to what is "present within our lives." How could Shakyamuni be present
in
>our lives? **Because Shakyamuni here refers to the Buddha nature which
>all people possess.** This is consistent with what SGI has always
taught. >quote is not referring to Shakyamuni who lived in India, it is referring
>to what is "present within our lives." How could Shakyamuni be present
in
>our lives? **Because Shakyamuni here refers to the Buddha nature which
>all people possess.** This is consistent with what SGI has always
Kathy, believe it or not, this is what orthodox Buddhists believe too.
Again, Nichiren says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "That is to say, it is
revealed here that all living beings in the ten realms as well as the
world in which they live manifest themselves to be eternal."
Now lets compare the two different versions of the Gosho. Remember the
past posts discussing the flaws within the Gosho Zenshu its derivitive the
Major Writings!
>> "Present within our lives is the Lord Shalyamuni who obtained
>>the three enlightened properties of life before gohyaku-jintengo, the
>>Original Buddha since time without begining." (MW vol 1, The True
>>Object of Worship, pg 65)
>>the three enlightened properties of life before gohyaku-jintengo, the
>>Original Buddha since time without begining." (MW vol 1, The True
>>Object of Worship, pg 65)
"It means that Shakyamuni Buddha, within our minds, is an ancient Buddha
without beginning, manifesting Himself in three bodies, and attained
Buddhahood in the eternal past described as 500 dust-particle kalpa ago."
(Kanjin Honzon Sho, pg 94)
So far pretty close! Now the MW starts to deviate significantly.
>"Demonstrating ten great mystic powers, the Buddha transferred
>Nam-myoho-renge-kyo to the Four Great Bodhisattvas, Jogyo, Anryugyo,
>Jyogyo and Muhengyo."
>Nam-myoho-renge-kyo to the Four Great Bodhisattvas, Jogyo, Anryugyo,
>Jyogyo and Muhengyo."
"Having thus manifested the ten divine powers, Shakyamuni Buddha
transmitted the five characters of myo, ho, ren, ge, kyo to the original
disciples of the Buddha since the eternal past, who had sprung up from
underground." (ibid, pg 140)
Kathy says, based on her flawed translation:
>Note that it does NOT say "Shakyamuni", it does NOT say "Namu", and it
>DOES include all the names of the Four Great Bodhisattvas.
[SNIP the rest of her low class, crass insults] >DOES include all the names of the Four Great Bodhisattvas.
The *better* translation (again refer to my past post "The Gosho Zenshu is
corrupt") DOES say: Shakyamuni Buddha. It doesn't say Namu or Nam, it
says the five characters myo, ho, ren, ge, kyo! And, it does not mention
any of the specifc four great bodhisattvas! It also refers to the etenal
past.
These two translations are VERY different and do lead to significant
misunderstandings in faith, as we see from the SGI and NSS theology.
>This part of the Gosho is a discussion of what's in the Lotus
>Sutra, and what verification there is for Nichiren being the votary of
>the Lotus Sutra.
>the Lotus Sutra.
Kathy, don't forget that Nichiren referred to several of his disciples as
votaries of the Lotus Sutra. I do not believe you can draw a special
distinction aout Nichiren from this. It is consistent with the tone of
his Gosho about ALL the bodhisattvas of the earth being messengers
fulfilling the mission of the Eternal Buddha in Mappo.
Now we get to a section of the Gosho where the translation was
deliberately changed to reflect the heetical teachings of Taisekiji, lets
compare the two:
>"Now is when the Bodhisattvas of the Earth will appear in this country
>and establish the supreme object of worship on the earth **which depicts
>Shakyamuni Buddha of the essential teaching attending the true
>Buddha**....Thus, the revelation of the true object of worship has been
>entrusted only to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth."
>Shakyamuni Buddha of the essential teaching attending the true
>Buddha**....Thus, the revelation of the true object of worship has been
>entrusted only to the Bodhisattvas of the Earth."
"This is the very time when original disciples of the Buddha should spring
up from underground, attend both sides of the Eternal Buddha revealed in
the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, and establish in this land of
Japan the supreme object of worship in the world (Hommon no Honzon)."
(ibid, pg 160)
Kathy, reasons based on the flawed translation:
>This indicates that the depiction of Shakyamuni on the Gohonzon is in a
>*supporting role*, attending the True Buddha.
>*supporting role*, attending the True Buddha.
We can see that Nichiren NEVER suggests this idea, it is a fabrication of
Taisekiji's to support their heretical theology!
Kathy, Nichiren has a special message for you and all your fellows in the
SGI, when he says in the Kanjin Honzon Sho, "Many ignorant people would
fall into hell by slandering the five characters, but they would be saved
eventually. This is what is meant by Miao-lo in his Words and Phrases of
the Lotus Sutra: "Slanderers of the True Dharma will fall into hell but
will inevitably be saved by virtue of having heard the True Dharma." This
is the "Poison Drum" concept. You can take hope!
nice !
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